James McCloud | Interview 1 | September 24, 2002

DUNHAM: What is your full name?

MCCLOUD: James Ferdinand Andres McCloud, is my full name. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Wow, got the full name. And where were you born?

MCCLOUD: Oakland, California.

DUNHAM: Did you know your grandparents?

MCCLOUD: I did, mainly on one side, and my grandfather on my father's side I knew, but my grandmother on my father's side had passed away before I was born.

DUNHAM: I'm sorry, so you knew on your father's--?

MCCLOUD: On my father's side, I knew my grandfather, but not my grandmother.

DUNHAM: Where was he from?

MCCLOUD: He was born in California, in something like 1852. His name was William Madison McCloud and he was a police officer for the city of Oakland, actually a sergeant.

DUNHAM: Wow, so he was here in Oakland a number of years?

MCCLOUD: Yes.

DUNHAM: And I'm sorry, on your mother's side, you said--?

MCCLOUD: On my mother's side, my grandparents came from Italy to San Francisco about 1875 I think it was, or thereabouts, and then settled in Oakland, where my mother and I guess some of her brothers and sisters were born. And my grandparents built a home in Alameda in the '20s as I remember, and that's where they lived until they went on.

DUNHAM: So both your mother and father were born in Oakland?

MCCLOUD: Yes, that's correct.

DUNHAM: And what did your father do for a living?

MCCLOUD: Well, he was mainly in the accounting end of things. He owned, at one 00:02:00time owned a restaurant/bar in Oakland, many years ago. That's about it, I guess.

DUNHAM: And your mom? What are your memories of your mom when you were growing up?

MCCLOUD: Well, God, she was very good to me. I had a brother who was about thirteen years older than me--it was just the two of us. She was very helpful in encouraging me to do whatever I could.

DUNHAM: What did your brother do?

MCCLOUD: He worked for the Southern Pacific Railroad as a brakeman.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. So, what was a typical day like in your childhood?

MCCLOUD: Well, when I lived in West Oakland--I was born and raised at 728 Filbert Street. I went to Cole Grammar School, Lowell Middle School, McClymonds 00:03:00for a couple of years. And I didn't think I was getting along too well there for the future, so I quit and joined the CCC camps during the depression days. And then after the CCC camps--I spent about a year in the CCC camps up in the northern part of California, Redding and another one up--fighting fire and one thing or another. Then came back, with the $25 or so we made a month, most of it went home, and my mother saved enough out of that so I could pay my final year's tuition at St. Mary's High School, where I graduated. And then, met some friends 00:04:00there at St. Mary's High who helped me get a job at Standard Oil; worked there for a year between high school and college and entered Stanford in 1937 and graduated from Stanford in '41 in engineering.

DUNHAM: Did you go straight to work in the shipyards?

MCCLOUD: The day after I graduated, I'll never forget: June 26, 1941, I went to work in Shipyard Number One in the Kaiser Company.

DUNHAM: And what were some of your experiences there, or how did it start for you there?

MCCLOUD: Oh, very well! I was assigned to Clay Bedford's office, who was the general manager of all of the Richmond shipyards. I worked in his office. I was a junior engineer. He gave me a job sorting his incoming mail from the Maritime 00:05:00Association, from the British Purchasing Commission, which--the first contract at Yard One was for thirty British ships, which was the British Purchasing Commission contract and this was before WWII started. These ships were coal burners, but virtually the same as Liberty Ship, that we then got a contract from the Maritime Commission for and gradually expanded operations to build Yard Two, Yard Three, and Yard Four in Richmond. We had, finally four shipyards in Richmond and three up in Oregon area.

DUNHAM: Did you stay based in Richmond?

MCCLOUD: Yes, I stayed in Richmond after most of the--I was field construction 00:06:00superintendent--construction of Yard Two. And after that, I was assigned to the outfitting dock at Yard Three where I became outfitting superintendent for the C4 troop transports we built at Yard Three, which were the largest ships we built in the Richmond shipyards. C4s, I think they had capacity for something like four thousand troops, eighty days at sea. All the stuff that went along with it, the refrigeration, the water making capacity, and what have you.

DUNHAM: Did you live in Oakland during this time, or did you live over there?

MCCLOUD: Well, for the first year or so, I lived with my family in Alameda. They had moved to Alameda. I commuted by car from Alameda to Richmond. Then after the first year or so, I got married and lived in Atchison Village in Richmond. 00:07:00Later, we bought a home there and we lived in that for about two years.

DUNHAM: And then where did you live after that?

MCCLOUD: After the shipyards, I was assigned to Willow Run Kaiser/Frazier Operations, I became general manager of the Detroit Engine Division, where we built all the engines and transmissions and like that for Willow Run, the assembly plant. After Kaiser decided to get out of passenger car business, the Kaiser Company bought what was then Willy's Motors Incorporated, the jeep manufacturer in Toledo, Ohio and my engine division became redundant because they had their own engine plant in Ohio, and I went with Mr. Kaiser to Argentina 00:08:00in 1954 on a survey trip, because nowhere in Latin America were cars manufactured. They had to import built-up cars and the financial situation in those countries didn't allow enough foreign exchange in order to import vehicles, so the idea was to manufacture it in the country. We went to Argentina and worked out an agreement with President Peron to set up a manufacturing plant in Argentina, to manufacture jeeps and Kaiser passenger cars. Later on, we took out license agreements with Renault of France for the Dauphine car, the small car, and also American Motors in the United States for middle-size automobiles. 00:09:00We were the first company to actually manufacture vehicles in Latin America.

DUNHAM: So back in Richmond--so you were in Alameda from about '41 to '42, about a year?

MCCLOUD: No, I was a little more than that. I forget, my wife and I got married in '44, so by that time I was living out in Richmond.

DUNHAM: Okay, in Atchison Village?

MCCLOUD: In Atchison Village--after we got married, we lived in Atchison Village.

DUNHAM: So you lived a little elsewhere before Atchison Village, too, before you got married?

MCCLOUD: No, I commuted to the shipyards.

DUNHAM: And did you commute by driving?

MCCLOUD: Yes, driving. [phone rings] [tape pauses]

DUNHAM: You started working under Clay Bedford?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, he was the general manager of the shipyards.

DUNHAM: And how was your transition then into the other jobs, your first job as superintendent, I guess, field coordinator, superintendent?

MCCLOUD: Field Construction Superintendent. I was mainly involved with the construction of Yard Two in Richmond. After the construction was finished, I was transferred to Yard Three, where I eventually became Outfitting Superintendent of Yard Three.

DUNHAM: Were those transitions --was that '41, '42?

MCCLOUD: Oh gosh that was--I think Yard Three was '43.

DUNHAM: Were you managing a number of people then?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, something like eight thousand.

DUNHAM: Wow, okay. So, as an overview, were some of yours views of the transition of Richmond and the population of the boom--

MCCLOUD: Well, when we first went to Richmond, back in the late forties is when the first contract was signed for the construction of the thirty British ships. I believe that was about August or September of 1940 construction of Yard One started. Actually, it was called the Todd California Shipyard Number One, it was a joint venture with Kaiser and Todd and Bathe-Maine--the shipbuilder Bath-Maine--and that all changed as we went along into the other yards, but that 00:12:00first shipyard was really instigated because of the contract with the British Purchasing Commission for thirty British ships, which were coal burners but about the same hull, cargo capability, and all of that as the Liberty Ships were that followed the British Ships. As I said, the British Purchasing Commission and the American Bureau of Shipping had inspection responsibility and all that.

DUNHAM: With the boom in Richmond and all the employees you had under you, was it quite a diverse population of employees?

MCCLOUD: Well, yes. I think I was going to say, when we first started in Richmond, I think the population was like 15,000, and we employed something like--I know there was something like 90,000 population came to Richmond.

DUNHAM: Yeah, I know it went from about twenty or fifteen as you said, to about 120, I think.

MCCLOUD: Yeah, 120 or something like that during the war.

DUNHAM: Yeah, it was incredible. So, what about women entering the workplace--was that a significant issue?

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah. They, I forget what the actual percentage of employment of women was, but it was around twenty to thirty percent, I guess. The famous Rosie the Riveter name came from that, and women welders, and women burners. Basically, that's where they were in, was in welding and burning.

DUNHAM: Was that under your management at all, or was that a separate?

MCCLOUD: Well, I didn't manage all of the shipyard. I ran the outfitting dock, 00:14:00after the ship was built--in the case of Yard Three, it was built in the basins, and after they were floated, the hull was floated and brought over to the outfitting dock. Then we had to install off of the accommodations for something like four thousand troops on board and build all of the engines and turbines and wiring, electricity, joiner work, furniture, sleeping accommodations, toilet accommodations--

DUNHAM: So, it was pretty varied. There were still a lot of people that were doing that portion?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, there was a lot of work on the outfitting dock, there was a lot of work on the outfitting dock. For troop transport it's a lot different than just a cargo ship.

DUNHAM: And it's requiring various skill levels then?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yes, all sorts of skills.

DUNHAM: Well, what was your perception--you'd gotten your engineering degree from Stanford--with the large need for so many workers with the changing of the specification of skills, the specificity around that?

MCCLOUD: Well, it took a lot of synchronization to work. You couldn't go to work on the interior of the ship until it was completely water tested and passed by the American Bureau of Shipping as being waterproof. Each compartment had to be tested, as well as the double bottoms and what have you. The double bottom testing was done on the ship ways, or in the case of Richmond, three in the basins to make sure that they were leak-proof and then when the ship got out to the dock, then we had all the other piping and electrical and what have you as well as structural work that had to be passed by the various inspection authorities.

DUNHAM: Right. Were there many safety and/or injuries in your area?

MCCLOUD: No, we ran a pretty safe yard. Every once in a while we might have an injury of some sort, yes. We had first aid right at the shipyards and all of the care needed for people that might get hurt. When you're running that many people in work that's as complicated as shipbuilding and things like that, you're likely to have any kind of accident.

DUNHAM: And your area, was it around the clock?

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah, twenty-four. We worked staggered work shifts, I think we worked--yeah, seven days a week, three shifts a day. A man might work Monday through Friday, another Tuesday through Saturday, Wednesday through Sunday.

DUNHAM: What was your perception of the housing situation or kind of the 00:17:00infrastructure of Richmond? How was it handled?

MCCLOUD: Well, the infrastructure of Richmond had to be completely--I forget how many housing units were built in Richmond, but thousands. And a special railroad was built for people who would take the ferry over from San Francisco into, I don't think it came into Richmond at that time, but probably into Oakland, and got on this--I think it was Key Route--that established it, a railroad out to Richmond.

DUNHAM: Was that ever something you had to concern yourself with, helping people with housing?

MCCLOUD: We did have personnel people that helped people with housing and what have you, because we had immigrants coming in from all over.

DUNHAM: Right, right. With all the different groups coming in, was there much 00:18:00racial tension, or was it hard to--?

MCCLOUD: No, I can't recall any real racial tension. We had a big percentage of black workers, and various other nationalities. People came from all over the United States to work in the shipyards and all sorts of nationalities worked there.

DUNHAM: Were the staffs, the different groups fairly integrated then?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yes.

DUNHAM: Were there very many women that worked directly under your supervision?

MCCLOUD: Well, indirectly, yeah. Under foreman and superintendent. The breakdown 00:19:00of the shipyard working population was in the various crafts. There were pipefitters, there were welders, there were shipfitters, there were machinists. Depending on what craft they worked in, that was the authority they worked under.

DUNHAM: Okay. Did you have any initial concerns about the introduction of women into the workforce?

MCCLOUD: Never even thought about it in those days. Needed welders, we didn't care whether it was a woman who welded or a man who welded as long as they could weld. Of course, we had welding schools and things like that, too.

DUNHAM: What relationship, if any, did you have with the unions--were there issues there?

MCCLOUD: Well, yeah. We had a direct relationship with the unions. I can't recall any strike in particular during the war days. The union was of course very cooperative because we were at war. But they all belonged to the various 00:20:00craft unions there were the Shipfitters, the Machinists, the Riggers or whatever craft they worked in that was the union they responded to.

DUNHAM: Since so many women were working, did many of them have children? How was that--?

MCCLOUD: Well, we had a lot of various childcare assistance. In elementary grades of school, I think there were ways that they would get guidance, the children, while their mother was away, in school. There was a lot of that done by our personnel department in coordination with the city of Richmond itself.

DUNHAM: During the war specifically, what did you do for fun or socializing?

MCCLOUD: Well, seven days of work didn't leave you much time.

DUNHAM: Yeah.

MCCLOUD: I think my wife and I, when we got married, had about a three day, long weekend to go up and have our honeymoon, up and I forget where it was up north someplace near a trout fishing stream because I like to fish. [laughs]

DUNHAM: Did she work?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, she worked in an--she was a secretary. That's where I met her actually, was in the shipyards. She was a secretary for one of the bosses there. I used to see this beautiful black haired gal running up and down the outfitting dock taking a message from somebody to somebody else, I suppose--that's how I met her.

DUNHAM: Did she continue then as a secretary?

MCCLOUD: No, after we got married--in those days, your wife didn't work.

DUNHAM: I see.

MCCLOUD: Kind of crazy, but--

DUNHAM: No, I understand--if you're able anyway--given your position, at least.

MCCLOUD: But she did a lot of extra things.

DUNHAM: Sure. With the housing boom and the shortage of housing, did you sublet or ever have renters, or were you aware of people who were doing that?

MCCLOUD: Doing what?

DUNHAM: There were a lot of, I think, houses or apartments that were shared around the clock--or homes where people also rented out rooms.

MCCLOUD: When we first got married, we rented a home in Atchison Village. And then we bought a home in, I think it was called Richmore Village. That was our first home we bought, and we had it for about two years before work ended at the shipyards, and I was transferred back east to Detroit.

DUNHAM: What year was that?

MCCLOUD: Something like '46 I think. I was one of the last people out of the shipyards. We did some, actually after the new construction of the big transports was done, we did some ship repairs after the war. We had bases where 00:23:00you could bring a ship in and dock it. I stayed on for a little over a year, now as I recall, ship repair work, and then was transferred back east.

DUNHAM: What are your memories right as the war ended?

MCCLOUD: Well, December 7, 1941, I'll never forget, I was at the beginning of an outfitting dock we built; we'd just got done building. The evening before a dredge we had working on getting the water level down so we could put ships there alongside the outfitting dock, and misloaded a muck barge that it was 00:24:00putting the spoils into and misloaded it so it dropped over against the new outfitting dock we had just finished and put a big curve in it. I was at the head end of the outfitting dock looking that thing over when a fella came up and told me that the Japs had just bombed Pearl Harbor, December 1941, so I remember that.

DUNHAM: And then on the other side, at the end of the war, do you remember where you were and your response as the war ended, with victory?

MCCLOUD: Well, I was at Yard Three, that's for sure. I can't recall any specific happening. Everybody celebrated, I'm sure. At the outfitting dock, at noon time once a week or so, we'd have a big gathering of the day shift people, 00:25:00entertainment or speaker of some kind, a veteran who had been in the war and come over and I think at the end of the war, we had the outfitting dock all get together and listen to a speaker tell us about the armistice and all of that.

DUNHAM: So, you were at the shipyards for at least another year, it sounds like?

MCCLOUD: Just about a year or so, yeah.

DUNHAM: So, what was that transition like then? Were most people's jobs lost overnight basically? How did that transition go?

MCCLOUD: Well, we finished the contracts, of course. And when the contracts were finished, that's when things all just started going down and people left. At the beginning of the war, December 7, 1941--I forget what the final date of the war was, but I know I was still there at Yard Three in 1946, where we did as I said 00:26:00some repair work after the new ship construction was finished.

DUNHAM: What happened for folks that did--since a lot of people lost jobs--did most of them stay in the area?

MCCLOUD: They just sort of faded away--oh yeah, a lot of them stayed in Richmond area. That's what gave the big increase to Richmond's population.

DUNHAM: So, it was kind of--

MCCLOUD: They looked for jobs. There was work around, of course.

DUNHAM: Do you have any kind of perspective on Richmond today and kind of how--what impact that might have had, lasting legacy--?

MCCLOUD: Well, I guess a lot of the people that stayed on at the end of the war are still there, if they're alive, at least their children are, and Richmond's population today is over 100,000, I suppose. The war impetus really blossomed 00:27:00out Richmond's population.

DUNHAM: During the war, what kinds of things did you cook and eat? Were some things hard to find?

MCCLOUD: A lot of things were rationed during the war. You got certificates that allowed you to go into a store and buy certain things that were rationed. We never went hungry, I know that. Might have been a little short of beef from time to time, or butter, you name it.

DUNHAM: Did you have any impression, again, just with the boom in Richmond and the increase in population, with infrastructure issues around crime and that sort of thing?

MCCLOUD: Well, I suppose there was an increase in crime relative to the increasing population, but not badly. I can't recall any real bad things in Richmond.

DUNHAM: Okay. Did you have any Japanese American either workers, neighbors or friends, that you knew who went to relocation camps or otherwise?

MCCLOUD: Yes, I recall growing up with a couple of Japanese friends in West Oakland. And I know that they were relocated and didn't maintain correspondence or anything like that. These are vague memories, we're talking about something from quite a number of years ago.

DUNHAM: Sure, sure. No, I understand. But mainly they were schoolhood friends you knew who were relocated?

MCCLOUD: I think one of them became a guy in the movies, Goro Suzuki. I think he 00:29:00got into the movies. He was a friend of mine in West Oakland.

DUNHAM: What were your impressions at that time, of that decision, I guess, around the camps--to have the internment camps?

MCCLOUD: Well, I didn't think it was too fair. But during the war, knowing the Japanese--their ability to infiltrate and things like that, the decision was taken to move the Japanese to interment camps was a pretty tough one. But I guess the government did it in the best interest of defense. We actually had Japanese submarines off the West Coast of California at times.

DUNHAM: Were there any Japanese American workers at the shipyards that you knew of, or heard of?

MCCLOUD: I can't recall any, no.

DUNHAM: Do you remember hearing about the Port Chicago explosion?

MCCLOUD: Mm-hmm.

DUNHAM: What were your feelings when you heard about that?

MCCLOUD: Well, it was sabotage. We know that. It was a big explosion, I'll tell you. And if I'm not mistaken it was one of our ships that we built.

DUNHAM: Hmmm. So, in the year after war, while you continued to work in the shipyards, did you have any particular feelings, I guess, about the transition, how was that?

MCCLOUD: Well, we were sure glad to see the war over.

DUNHAM: Certainly that. Did you have to deal with [kind of] the aspects of the layoffs as the contracts ended?

MCCLOUD: Well, that was a pretty mechanical thing. People expected it, of course. It was nothing new. It wasn't a disastrous type layoff. It was a very well planned transition. There seemed to be a lot of work around in those days, for that matter.

DUNHAM: What kind of work was most common?

MCCLOUD: Factories that had to be shut down during the war because of lack of steel, lack of materials, things like that, would crank up again. A lot of the peace time work that had to be abandoned during the war took up and offered employment to a lot of people. It was a transition, I can't recall any real disastrous aspects of the transition.

DUNHAM: What were your relationships like with co-workers? Did you have a lot of friends within the shipyards?

MCCLOUD: Oh sure.

DUNHAM: Mostly, then, your fellow management--?

MCCLOUD: Management, foremen, things like that. Riggers and what have you.

DUNHAM: Did your wife and you have children?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, but not during the war. '47 was my first child, I believe while we were back in the Detroit area.

DUNHAM: How many children did you have?

MCCLOUD: Four sons.

DUNHAM: Four sons. And how long were you in Detroit?

MCCLOUD: Until '55, when I went to Argentina.

DUNHAM: How long were you in Argentina then?

MCCLOUD: Until '72.

DUNHAM: And then back here?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, I came back to the States through Kaiser Engineers in '72 and I 00:33:00started out as the group president as Kaiser Industries Corporation. That then became president of Kaiser Engineers and I retired from that post in '83, I think it was.

DUNHAM: Okay. And that was here, you were in Oakland, then.

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah. Kaiser.

DUNHAM: Okay, right. When did you move to Piedmont?

MCCLOUD: When we came back from Argentina in '72.

DUNHAM: So were your children all grown then, were some still in school?

MCCLOUD: Well, the youngest one was in school and the others were all out, I guess.

DUNHAM: So a lot of their adolescence was in Argentina?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yeah.

DUNHAM: So what was that experience like?

MCCLOUD: Very good. They went to grammar school there and what they would call junior high school up here and then I sent them up to Webb Prep School for their high school, a preparatory school down in the Claremont area, the Los Angeles area. It's a very good prep school and they all went up to Webb for school there as long as we lived in Argentina and then when we came back from Argentina I think the oldest they had already graduated and gone on to college. And the 00:35:00number four son went to junior high, I think, in Piedmont and then went to Webb for four years.

DUNHAM: And what are they doing, generally?

MCCLOUD: Well, the oldest son is the president of Mitsubishi Cement Corporation in the Los Angeles area. Number two is a lawyer, he lives in Houston, for Bechtel, and handles all their South American contract work--all my boys are bilingual, you know. They all speak Spanish and English. Number three is an artist in San Francisco and number four is--live in Santiago, Chile. He's a mining engineer and he works for Bechtel, but lives in Santiago Chile. He's married to a Chilean girl who's also an engineer. They're expecting their first 00:36:00child in November.

DUNHAM: Wow. Will that be your first grandchild or do you have--

MCCLOUD: Oh, no that will be number five or number six.

DUNHAM: Are each or your sons married?

MCCLOUD: Yes.

DUNHAM: Wow. What kind of art does the one in San Francisco do?

MCCLOUD: Uh--he does ceramic art and painting uh--and also works in printing press. A specialized printing press for reproduction of art works and things like that--I don't know anything about it, but that's what he does. He's the offshoot. All the others are engineers or lawyers or something.

DUNHAM: Right--it sounds like--that's why I was just curious.

MCCLOUD: Because he takes after his mother--his mother is quite an artist. That's his mother in fact right there.

DUNHAM: Oh wow. Okay. Wait--so that's a portrait? A self-portrait?

MCCLOUD: Oh no. A painter in Argentina did that.

DUNHAM: Oh wow it's beautiful.

MCCLOUD: See that poncho on the wall there?

DUNHAM: Mm-hm.

MCCLOUD: You know what a poncho is?

DUNHAM: You mean one of the paintings?

MCCLOUD: Shawl--see the one that says it's got a--second one down from the right.

DUNHAM: All right. Right there, yes.

MCCLOUD: Second one down from the right. That's one of her paintings.

DUNHAM: Oh that's very nice. And I'll take this down afterwards and do a quick shot of each of those for the record. So she was interested in art. So during the war--did she start her--or was she already interested in art before the war years?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yeah. She was always interested in art.

DUNHAM: So once she was able to--she was not a secretary anymore did she already immediately start focusing on that or was she busy with other things during the war years?

MCCLOUD: Well, during the war years she was busy as a secretary and then busy getting married. [laughs]

DUNHAM: Right, right. So once she got--once you were married.

MCCLOUD: Once we were married, then she used to get around a little more into art and things like that. Probably where it started.

DUNHAM: Okay. What about in Oakland and Alameda during the war years? Was there much transition there? Was there a fair amount of growth? Did you see any particular impact on the communities?

MCCLOUD: Well, in West Oakland, of course, right near the estuary. There was a lot of activity in the estuary during the war, war shipyards, general shipyards. A tremendous amount of activity in the estuary area. The same in Alameda. Other than that it's--

DUNHAM: Yeah. Back at--just curious about--in your high school at McClymon's, you said you went for two years? And then what occurred? It just wasn't an adequate environment?

MCCLOUD: Well, that was during the Depression days and things were pretty rough and I just didn't think I was--had a program yet--I was young, anyway. I was in 00:39:00classes about a year ahead of what my age was and things like that, or a couple years. They skipped me in one way or another and I just can't explain it. I just didn't feel comfortable about the education I was getting so--and as I said, it was during the Depression, so things were rough. So I quit and joined the CCC camps.

DUNHAM: Yeah so what was--I'm not familiar with the CCC camps. Describe them to me--

MCCLOUD: Civilian Conservation Corps, it was during the Roosevelt era, Franklin D. Roosevelt. During the Depression days and I guess I don't know how many camps there were but there were at least two million young man working in CCC camps around the nation. Forestry, preservation, and what have you.

DUNHAM: So you did that for about a year?

MCCLOUD: Yeah.

DUNHAM: At that point in your adolescence--I know it's the depression and so things looked bleak, but did you have particular ambitions or dreams of what you might want to do in your life?

MCCLOUD: Well I think I--yeah I was always interested in mechanics and things like that and I knew I wanted--I thought I wanted--but I knew I wanted to be an engineer. I guess I did at that time. And that's really what I enrolled in. Then when I came back, as I said, I finished at St. Mary's High School and worked at Standard Oil Company for a year and made enough money to pay my first year of tuition at Stanford.

DUNHAM: What was it like at Stanford at that time?

MCCLOUD: Oh great! Let's see this was in 1937 and I entered school. I used to play baseball and football and you had to make up your mind if you were gonna 00:41:00take engineering you couldn't play any college sports, particularly football, because it just took too much time. So I gave up football, and I did play a little baseball.

DUNHAM: What positions did you play?

MCCLOUD: Third.

DUNHAM: Were your sons athletic, as well?

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah. They all played something'. Particularly soccer; they got very good at soccer.

DUNHAM: Were you able to--I guess during the war--was there any time--you'd mentioned working seven days a week, but did you have time for recreation at all? To play any kind of sport?

MCCLOUD: No, no. Not during the war.

DUNHAM: After the war?

MCCLOUD: Well, after the war I used to play gold a bit and one thing or another.

DUNHAM: Were there other--for the employees as a whole during the war, were 00:42:00there some kind of recreational activities and organizations set up around that? I know--I was looking at some of the Kaiser newsletter, the Fore and Aft, I believe--

MCCLOUD: Yeah.

DUNHAM: --and it looked like there were quite a variety of programs through there.

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah, they had a lot of things organized in the shipyard's Personnel Department they had softball teams, I know. They also had some basketball teams, as I remember.

DUNHAM: What was the hardest aspect of your work at the shipyards?

MCCLOUD: Beating the deadlines, because knowing that they had to have these ships. It was challenging to really get your various craft activities synchronized so that they weren't jumping on top of each other. You had to actually schedule the work down to minute details so that the various 00:43:00crafts--one would usually follow another and you had to make sure that all the work was synchronized.

DUNHAM: What if one fell behind, then?

MCCLOUD: Well, we had to boost 'em up and get it done. That's what management's for.

DUNHAM: What were the most rewarding aspects of the work, then?

MCCLOUD: Taking a ship out on sea-trial and seeing it come home with a clean sweep broom up on the masthead, which meant that it had passed.

DUNHAM: Okay. That was the signal for that. Did you have ceremonies when the ships were launched.

MCCLOUD: No. We didn't have to take every ship out on sea-trial, eventually, but the first few ships had to go out on sea trial. And the Robert E. Perry, that was the world record ship construction time was keel-laying to launching in four 00:44:00and a half days and keel-laying to going out the Golden Gate with a load of cargo in a total of seven and a half days.

DUNHAM: Wow.

MCCLOUD: Robert E. Perry.

DUNHAM: And that was far above average, still, though, right?

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah! That was not average! That was a world record ship and we had so many welders working on it that if you dropped a dime on the deck it would be welded before you could pick it up! [laughs]

DUNHAM: What was the average time, do you know about? I guess it varied?

MCCLOUD: Oh it varied--we had all different types of ships we built. The shipyard, combined--between the Richmond shipyards and the Oregon shipyards, averaged at least one ship a day. I forget--we built during the war days something like fourteen, fifteen hundred ships I got a big book over there of 00:45:00records--And we averaged, roughly, one ship a day during the entire, roughly, sixteen hundred days of the war. We built one third of the total merchant marine tonnage built in the United States in World War II.

DUNHAM: Wow. This is kind of an off-beat question, but within the workplace do you remember any humor associated with working at the shipyards?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yeah. We always had something going on.

DUNHAM: What was an example of that?

MCCLOUD: Oh God I don't know.

DUNHAM: Just playing jokes, kind of thing or--?

MCCLOUD: Well not doing anything that was--it's hard to say--we used to have 00:46:00competitions. One yard, during the Victory Ship days, I remember Yard Two outfitting dock, we took some Victory Ships from Yards One and Two to do the outfitting on 'em because they were much more complex than the Liberty Ships. So we took some Victory Ships over to Yard Three and we had a competition going on between the yard outfit dock and the Yard Three outfit dock to see who could get them done fastest. Of course, we had prizes and things like that so--it was competitions of that sort going on all the time.

DUNHAM: What kind of prizes would you have?

MCCLOUD: Oh nothing--a bottle of wine or something like that.

DUNHAM: Yeah, more for the pride of it--make a game of it. Did you have any 00:47:00family members or close friends who were in the military?

MCCLOUD: No, my older brother who was thirteen years older than me--he was too old to get into the military and he worked on the railroad, which was mainly wartime activity anyway. Well I had friends who were off and--

DUNHAM: So you did know some friends who were there? Was it--but otherwise, it was more of an overall feeling for the length of the war--

MCCLOUD: Yeah. I never applied for a deferment. I just kept working and they 00:48:00wanted me in the shipyards so I just stayed there.

DUNHAM: Sure, sure. Maybe--I know we've gone over this some, but this is another way of looking at it--could you describe just an ordinary one day in the shipyard and what your duties might have been?

MCCLOUD: Well, the first thing, of course, if that you'd come to work about seven o'clock in the morning. Sit down, and review the status of every ship at the outfitting dock, the degree of completion, and any notes left over by the graveyard superintendent to me. I had three shifts going all the time: day, 00:49:00swing, and graveyard, and each of them had a superintendent. The swing shift and the graveyard superintendents would all leave me notes and I would bring in the day shift superintendent and we'd read it over and decide which ship really needed some attention and what specific activity needed more attention on that ship than another so that its rate of progress or rate of completion was solid. It's a big construction business, is what it is.

DUNHAM: Sure, sure. What about any disciplinary issues with workers? Were you involved with, did you administer, deal with problem situations?

MCCLOUD: Yeah we didn't have many problems like that of course, you're working with craft bosses; each craft had its own superintendent.

DUNHAM: Okay.

MCCLOUD: The pipefitter's craft had a pipefitter superintendent, and they handled their own crews and things like that so that the direct disciplinary action, if any, would be from the craft superintendent to his own people.

DUNHAM: Right. So you didn't have to directly--

MCCLOUD: I didn't have to get into that. But I might be critical of some part of the craft job on a given ship and I wouldn't be able to point the blame at any specific individual.

DUNHAM: Right, so unless it was a certain situation you might have been aware of it but--just asked because it seemed with so many new people having to come in with the (?) training time there must have been a lot of--

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah. All kinds--

DUNHAM: --challenges.

MCCLOUD: Challenges.

DUNHAM: Yeah. But mostly the craft superintendents would have dealt with that. 00:51:00Well, what was Atchison Village like? What was the community--

MCCLOUD: Well it's still there, and very nice. Little, fairly small--they're not--it's single houses--they're--I can't remember the name for them but each unit might have two or three living areas in them and I think our address was 14 West Atchison Village or something like that but each of them had their own number and what have you.

DUNHAM: Was the community there fairly diverse, or was it--

MCCLOUD: Well, yes, in a sense. When you talk about nationalities, are you?

DUNHAM: Yeah. Racially.

MCCLOUD: I can't really recall any--too much diversity around shipyard workers, which were diverse in themselves.

DUNHAM: But Atchison Village, itself, was maybe more--it was predominately white, do you think, or--I wasn't sure. I read a little about it--

MCCLOUD: It's hard to remember.

DUNHAM: Yeah. It's indicating now, I know, from what I've been reading about it that it happens to be pretty diverse today. I wasn't sure, then, if it was.

MCCLOUD: It's still there.

DUNHAM: Yeah, they've redone it certainly. Have you been out there at all?

MCCLOUD: Not lately.[Laughing] Not for some time.

DUNHAM: Or have you been out by just the shipyards or Richmond in general?

MCCLOUD: Well we had to go--I had to go up to the shipyards here a couple of months ago. They wanted to interview me out there. And the Red Oak Victory, you know, that Richmond has? That's out there some place. It's not at one of the old 00:53:00shipyards. It's someplace else, off of point Richmond I believe it is. And we did--I forget who it was Hauser. Where they did an interview of me. "Kaiser Shipyard" that's an interview he did of me and then here's another one on "The Birth of Victory" that's a shipyard video.

DUNHAM: Oh I see: "California's Gold." So this is the interview of Huell Hauser?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, Huell Hauser.

DUNHAM: And then this is a separate--

MCCLOUD: That's a video of "The Birth of Victory" that's a--I believe--actually the construction of the Robert E. Perry, the world record Liberty Ship.

DUNHAM: Oh okay. It was done a little while ago, then.

MCCLOUD: Well, yeah. During the construction.

DUNHAM: Oh okay--so that was--

MCCLOUD: 1946.

DUNHAM: Oh that was filmed at that time?

MCCLOUD: Yeah it was filmed and I had this video made of it.

DUNHAM: Oh okay, yeah. I would--is there a--would it be possible for me to borrow it or look at that or--

MCCLOUD: Sure. As long as I get it back.

DUNHAM: Oh certainly. No, just for a short, you know, day or something I'll return it. In terms of the racial issue--because of Richmond--kind of the 00:55:00transition it's been and sort of the lasting poverty and challenges that have been there--did you have any feeling just immediately after the war of any--I don't know how to say--concern about that? Or looking now, back on it do you see--?

MCCLOUD: Well, I think at the time the transition from wartime activity to peacetime activity was a fairly gradual affair. We had to complete contracts and things like that and there was kind of a slow decline. It just didn't stop!

DUNHAM: Right.

MCCLOUD: Like that! There was a transitional phase and so it gave people time to 00:56:00either go back to their original place in the United States and take up their work there or--the transition itself was very good, I thought. I know of no people who went begging for food or anything like that.

DUNHAM: Okay. So you think the issues that are fairly significant today in Richmond were more a transition after that at some point or development after?

MCCLOUD: Yeah.

DUNHAM: It seems like--because of wartime and because so many of the, of course, soldiers were away at war there were kind of tremendous opportunities--these job opportunities--and then, while you mentioned there was a lot of other industry 00:57:00and jobs to transition to, there was also the reality of having to compete with all the returning soldiers, too. So I'm just wondering if that also made it challenging and also, given the realities of the day that there was still some tendencies towards racism--if that made if harder for certain people--

MCCLOUD: I can't recall any racism per se activity. During the war, god, we had all sorts of nationalities: blacks, whites, yellows and what have you and I really can't recall any real problems. Everybody mingled together very well.

DUNHAM: Both inside and outside the workplace? With the social--

MCCLOUD: Mm-hmm. Well I don't know about inside--I was just there I mean. If you're in Richmond you're there!

DUNHAM: Okay. But I just meant, I guess, like socially did you go to bars or 00:58:00theaters or that kind of thing, too or--What was that environment like?

MCCLOUD: Well, it was open to everybody. Just like it is today.

DUNHAM: We had a reference to ten theaters in Richmond at that time--did you go to the theater at all? I don't know were those--

MCCLOUD: No, I didn't have time to do that.

DUNHAM: Okay. Yeah. I understand. Somebody was going, I guess, if they had ten of them, but not someone who's busy as you yourself. Were there any other just particular aspects. Again, I mean it's such a tremendous boom and growth. Just is there any strong memories of how the city and Kaiser, the shipyards, coped with this growth?

MCCLOUD: Yeah. We worked very closely with the mayor of Richmond, the city 00:59:00management, and what have you in particularly in providing housing for all the people. Kaiser Hospital, for example, was built there during the war and it was not an HMO in those days, but it served all of Richmond--Mr. Kaiser, starting with Grand Coulee Dam, as a policy took care, medical care of his employees and their families. And that's how the HMO got started. It was not an HMO, however, during the war. It was only for the employees in the shipyards and their families. And we had that field hospital there on Cutting Boulevard, which is still there. And bought the Fabiola Hospital down here in Oakland and that was used for overflow of any help needed. And then, after the war it became an HMO. 01:00:00The first HMO in the United States and today the biggest HMO in the United States.

DUNHAM: After the war, in your year you continued for--I guess it was--a year at the shipyards were you--

MCCLOUD: Well we had a lot of work to do on repairing of ships and things like that that kept me on until 1946 at the shipyards then I was transferred back to Detroit.

DUNHAM: Were you as busy as you had been, or did you feel some relief that you could--?

MCCLOUD: Well, I was busy, yeah. Darn right!

DUNHAM: Still you were a hard worker in times of war and peace, undoubtedly with your career. Were your parents living in this area, still, at the time?

MCCLOUD: Uh-huh.

DUNHAM: And were they both working or--?

MCCLOUD: Well, they were in Alameda.

DUNHAM: They were in Alameda? Okay. Your father was an accountant. Okay. Did 01:01:00they stay in this area all their lives, then?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yeah. They were born and raised, both of them, in Oakland.

DUNHAM: Did you have a religious affiliation when you were growing up?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yeah. Catholic.

DUNHAM: Catholic. Was that a factor--were there religious services roll through the shipyard at all?

MCCLOUD: Not in the shipyards themselves; there were Catholic churches all over the place.

DUNHAM: I'm curious, too, about your time in Argentina--you started talking about it as the first--

MCCLOUD: First company to actually manufacture vehicles entirely in Latin America.

DUNHAM: And you were there about fifteen years?

MCCLOUD: Seventeen.

DUNHAM: Seventeen years. And what were your experiences--it sounds like it was a very positive experience--

MCCLOUD: Oh, yeah. We signed the agreement with Mr. Kaiser and President Peron. I think at that time it was his son, Edgar who signed the agreement in January of -- goddammit! Fifty--Fifty-five with Peron. We organized a company called Kaiser Industries of Argentina and Industrias Kaiser Argentina. It was organized and with the Peron blessing and we--Kaiser invested about 35% of its stock in the form of machinery and tools and things like that that we brought down from the states. The Argentine Air Force was our main local component because the 01:03:00Argentine Air Force did a lot of the manufacturing work for various things. They had machinery, machine shops, things like that--The airforce, owned about 12% and the Argentine public owned 50% of the company. And the contract was signed in fifty--fifty-five, and in May of 1956 we produced our first jeep, which had an engine in it that was manufactured in that plant. The main plant was up on Cordova, Argentina, which is the second largest city in Argentina but it's northwest of Buenos Aires about 400 miles.

DUNHAM: And your role there?

MCCLOUD: President.

DUNHAM: And were you working with a combination, then, of U.S. workers and 01:04:00Argentinean workers?

MCCLOUD: Well, I brought down about a hundred U.S. workers as foremen and supervisors. So, we decided to get out the automobile business. I forget how many thousands--they might have wrote a book on it. We must have had something like eight or nine thousand people working for us, I guess. Maybe more.

DUNHAM: And so at the time you left, then, did the operations cease?

MCCLOUD: Well, when we decided to get out of--and when I say "we" Mr. Henry Kaiser and his advisors and all that decided to get out of the automobile business in Argentina. It was kind of paradoxical situation: the Argentine and 01:05:00Brazilian operations, where we manufactured vehicles for most countries, were the only operations in all of Kaiser's empire that had to do with direct selling to the public. We were in engineering and construction, aluminum, steel, cement, products like that. We were in the automobile business, kind of an offshoot. He was advised by his financial advisors that they ought to get out of the retail, selling, part and just concentrate on raw material, things like that, and construction.

DUNHAM: How were your feelings, just personally about [McCloud sneezes]

MCCLOUD: Sorry to see it. I was transferred back up here in '72, where I became 01:06:00president of Kaiser Engineers and worked there until I retired in '83.

DUNHAM: So you really enjoyed your time in Argentina?

MCCLOUD: Oh, yeah.

DUNHAM: Yeah. What made it most enjoyable?

MCCLOUD: Well, it was the challenges of the job. We had a big operation there. It was my home and I still go down every year.

DUNHAM: And is that where--you're about to move back there? Is that--?

MCCLOUD: I go down in November and I'm down there at my country place from November to March.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. And why do you love it so much?

MCCLOUD: Well, because we've got a beautiful lake, as you can see and it's good trout fishing and we got a beautiful place there.

DUNHAM: [Looking at picture] Are all three of those there. All of these here?

MCCLOUD: Well, they're all the same place.

DUNHAM: Yeah. They're all--and what city is that?

MCCLOUD: It's near (Vera Loche?), which is southwest of Buenos Aires, about a thousand miles. It's in Patagonia and that's a lake there called "Lago Traful", which is about half the size of Tahoe. We bought that place while we were living in Argentina; that's our country place.

DUNHAM: Where was the main operation? Was it in Buenos Aires?

MCCLOUD: Well, Buenos Aires was our administrative offices and our main plants were mainly in Cordova, Argentina and we had a foundry in the province of Buenos Aires. We were spread out quite a bit.

DUNHAM: Uh-hmm. So beautiful. And this one--is this one of your wife's works?

MCCLOUD: The one with the poncho there? Yeah.

DUNHAM: Where was this portrait done?

MCCLOUD: In Argentina. Yeah.

DUNHAM: So both you and your wife learned Spanish--

MCCLOUD: Um-hmm.

DUNHAM: Did you want to--did we want to look through any of that now, would that 01:09:00be a good time, or was there anything in particular you wanted to--

MCCLOUD: Well, I'll show you [huge sound of microphone toppling, McCloud moving]--couple of things. [Long pause] This picture's of Yard Three. This is Yard One here. Yard Two here. But this is Yard Three.

DUNHAM: [inaudible].

MCCLOUD: The last of the--last of the 519 Liberty Ships (for the Herman A. Douglas Corporation joins the fleet?).

DUNHAM: And what size was that, it could how many?

MCCLOUD: Well, that's cargo.

DUNHAM: That's cargo. That's cargo.

MCCLOUD: Yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay.

MCCLOUD: This is a troop ship. [Inaudible] Yard Three Ships--see what we got here. This was the banquet we had at the closing of the yard.

DUNHAM: In '46 then?

MCCLOUD: Yeah--something like that. Then this is a group of us going down to the Hotel (Mac?) in Richmond after work.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. So that was one place where you could socialize? Have some drinks?

MCCLOUD: (Henry Flood?) he was the Yard Superintendent Three. (Earl Humphrey, who was an electrician and Bob Shirley?) he was in the Outfitting--not the 01:11:00Outfitting Dock but (in the shipway). I forget (Waddell?) was his name, he was the Chief of Plant Protection for all the shipyards. There's old MacAfee, the owner of Hotel Mac in Point Richmond. You know where that is, in Point Richmond?

DUNHAM: I know where Point Richmond is, but I don't know this. Is that still open now?

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah, sure. Shipyard worker hears the noonday program of the veterans would come and talk to the people. The meeting in {Flood's} office. That's (President?).

DUNHAM: Were there other kinds of noontime meetings, besides the veterans coming and talking?

MCCLOUD: Oh, well we had various entertainment here. For example, "the noontime 01:12:00speech from a veteran." Here's some more. [inaudible] Kaiser day shift supervision, some wing shift supervision. And this is the graveyard supervision.

DUNHAM: So you mentioned you would get notes from the Graveyard Supervisor, would you also meet with the Graveyard Supervisor?

MCCLOUD: Oh, sure. This was the--I guess the Mayor of Richmond, right there 01:13:00saying goodbye to (Bedford?). (William Thompson?) what is this picture? His brother was the first general manager of the shipyards and he followed him. [Inaudible] steelyards. The steel storage and supplies for various shipyards. 01:14:00The troop ship (General Leroy Altoids) that my wife Christened.

DUNHAM: Did what to it?

MCCLOUD: She Christened. This is a C-4 Troop Transport right here. Four thousand troops capacity. Clean sweep broom after he returns home from sea trail.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. And was it very often that it would get sea trial and have some problems, or?

MCCLOUD: Well, you never know. Actually, we were very lucky in all of our sea trials. The secret of our speed in building the ships was our prefabrication. 01:15:00This is a pre-fab. (?) deck that weigh 250 tons. Four (whorly) cranes would take it and put it onto the ship.

DUNHAM: I see. Whereas, otherwise, other operations would do--

MCCLOUD: [Inaudible] on plate at a time. (long pause)This is Engine Room stuff here. These are all data. Costs per man on payroll and you got all these ship data.

DUNHAM: Right.

MCCLOUD: (And ? month to month operation raising shipyards?) What you need man 01:17:00hours per month. Machinery installed. Shipbuilding information. Total man-hours to Liberty Ships. The two Victories, DD3's up at Kaiser Vancouver, that's all dated, ship construction cost. Here's number Two, here's number One. Here's every ship we built in the shipyards is here on file. Keel laying date, ship lay, the launching, dock trial, actual delivery time. Actual delivery date. Days on the ways, days outfitting, total days, days ahead of contract, delivery etceteras for every ship we built. (Inaudible) First British ship--first ship 01:18:00produced by Kaiser company's. Eight months after groundbreaking of shipyard.

DUNHAM: When was the groundbreaking of the shipyard?

MCCLOUD: Well, it was eight months and this is 1941, August, so August is the seventh month, isn't it?

DUNHAM: Oh, and that was actually after you got--

MCCLOUD: August is the eight month, isn't it? Yeah. This is eight months after groundbreaking of shipyard.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay so that was in January--beginning of the year, probably. You got there in June after graduation, or May?

MCCLOUD: I got there in June. Todd California Shipbuilding Corporation--that was 01:19:00the original corporate setup we had in shipyard number One when we were a joint venture with (Katash California,??? Todd Shipyard Corporation that name??). That's how we got into shipbuilding.

DUNHAM: At what point did it -- did they stay your partner?

MCCLOUD: No, after the end of the British--thirty British ships we broke it up and went our own way with mainly partners from the Six Companies that built Boulder Dam, you know? We built the four shipyards in Richmond and three up in Oregon area. Bechtel built one in Marin City. [Inaudible] Here's a diagram of 01:20:00the first ship. Mrs. Land was the wife of the chairman of the Maritime Administration. August 16, 1941: first ship we lost. (pause) The Rosie the 01:21:00Riveter Memorial.

DUNHAM: Was that the recent thing, or?

MCCLOUD: No, this is the recent.

DUNHAM: Did you go to any of the opening?

MCCLOUD: Oh yeah, yeah. Well that's the Robert E. Perry that's the World Record ship.

DUNHAM: So was that set about to try to do--you wanted to do a World Record 01:22:00time? Was that a specific goal?

MCCLOUD: It set two world records for speed of construction. U.S.S. Robert E. Perry at (10,500 dead weight?). Cargo shall be delivered Sunday, November 15, at 2:30 P.M. to establish the value of the pre-fabrication methods in shipbuilding. Four days and fifteen hours and twenty six minutes after the keel was laid--and the world record was seven days, fourteen hours and twenty-three minutes from keel to delivery. I think this was a--"Buy War Bonds" (long pause) You can have 01:23:00that one, I've got several copies of it. I don't know about the crowds. (Inaudible) Foundation Hospital. Doctor Garfield. Steve Bechtel.

DUNHAM: I'm sorry your restroom that I could use for just a sec?

MCCLOUD: Yeah, right there. [Very long pause]

DUNHAM: (inaudible)

MCCLOUD: (Inaudible) Western Shipbuilders of World War II. There's a description of Yard Two. Here's a description of Yard One. (Inaudible)

DUNHAM: That say it was prepared for you? Put your name on there (inaudible).

MCCLOUD: [Inaudible] But it's, you know it's there.

DUNHAM: Okay thank you. Yeah we can wrap up. I think just--Well, I guess just closing. Is there anything in particular today that you can think of that you--that we haven't talked about that's important to share?

MCCLOUD: [Inaudible]

DUNHAM: What has been your impression of the Rosie project?

MCCLOUD: Oh, I think it's coming along very well.

DUNHAM: I appreciate all your sharing.

[End of interview]