Leon Mason | Interview 1 | March 7, 2011

Interviewer Note: The first few minutes of this interview with Leon Mason were cut off from the audio files. Mason discussed his early life and parents before describing what his father did for work in the 1930s.

REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about that, then. Your father worked for the WPA in San Francisco.

MASON: Right. He was a very skilled machinist but couldn't get a job. I remember going with him places looking for work, and he just couldn't get it. He used to work--back when he had a job back East--he worked for the Ford Motor Company, and he would work on a dye to the thousandth of an inch; if it wasn't put in right, they would throw it away and start all over again, because later on he got a job as a machinist for the shipyards. When we [his father and brother] started at Kaiser, I started at Kaiser in Richmond, and then the three of us moved to Marinship because it was closer to where we lived. We lived in the Richmond district, which is in the south, and the northwest part of San 00:01:00Francisco's Richmond district, and we three worked for Marinship. I worked at a ship there, and my brother was a rigger because he was a seaman, a merchant ship, and my father was a tool and dye maker, so all three of us worked at the same shipyard for a while until I went into the service in June of 1943.

REDMAN: I'm still curious about the New Deal and the alphabet agencies because that's something that I'm interested in.

MASON: Roosevelt was great. They should have done that even now, where they're giving jobs to people doing different things. I know there was a friend of my father's who played an instrument, and he would teach children. They had theater then, they had the WPA, different jobs that they put people on, and many things 00:02:00that were built then are still existing now from jobs that were created by Franklin D. Roosevelt trying different types of things. The CCCs was great. My brother went into it first, and then I went in after high school, into the CCCs, and a lot of things that are built nowadays were built by these people.

REDMAN: Leon, tell me when did you graduate high school?

MASON: I graduated January 1940. Commerce High School in San Francisco. It is now the Board of Education Building on Van Ness and Hayes Street.

REDMAN: Tell me about finishing up high school. You'd mentioned your father was a machinist; he'd worked for Ford in Detroit before going to Los Angeles then to 00:03:00San Francisco. How far along in his schooling did he go, and how did he--?

MASON: I think about the third grade, I think, according to what he told me. My mother graduated high school back in Europe; my father, I think, about the third grade. He had to go to work. He was the oldest son, and he went to work on the railroad with his father in the Ukraine, never the--

REDMAN: Is that how he picked up his skills?

MASON: I think so, quite likely.

REDMAN: I know you'd mentioned shadowing your father on the WPA assignment as a night watchman and sleeping in the car.

MASON: One of his jobs, right.

REDMAN: One of his jobs, and later on you became a ship fitter. Was there any 00:04:00sort of early education in terms of working with your hands and--?

MASON: Not really. I always watched my father; he could take a car apart and put it back together again. We always had a car--as poor as we were--we always had a car because my father could always do something with it, but I never did, no. When I was a ship fitter I started--when the jobs were open I went to Kaiser, and I got a job as sweeping and also carrying a fire extinguisher around, walking around. That started as a--I don't know if it was a laborer or what; we got ninety-five cents an hour. Then I went to night school and learned to be a ship fitter. We got then a dollar five an hour, and I was more or less helping a journeyman ship fitter who was getting a dollar fifteen and a dollar twenty an hour at Kaiser. By the way, Kaiser was very good. They gave you health benefits 00:05:00there right on the job. What they did is Kaiser worked "plus"; in other words, as much as his expenses were, he would get so much above what the government was paying, that much, so much above his costs. But they were trying to keep us on the job as they had medical attention right there on the job and things of that nature.

REDMAN: Immediately after you graduated from high school--I want to return to your time at Kaiser, and especially learn about health benefits and things of that nature--but after you graduated from high school you went into the Civilian Conservation Corps?

MASON: Not quite, I had all kind of different little jobs. I was special messenger in San Francisco on the bike. You see special messengers in San Francisco.

REDMAN: Sure, yes.

MASON: I did that work. I did all kind of different work, and then I went into CCCs.

REDMAN: Tell me about what sorts of projects you worked on in the CCC.

MASON: Okay, mostly I worked--I was one of the few, maybe the only one in my outfit that could type. I took typing in high school. I was able to do twenty words a minute, and they needed a person to be the secretary to the forest ranger, head of the forest ranger in Salyer, California, which is on Highway 299 in the Trinity National Forest. I worked for him for a while. Then when there was a forest fire I would be called out with the crew, and there were days when they needed someone to help out--well, before even I got the job with the forest service--maintaining roads, cleaning roads, cleaning up brush and things of that nature in that area in Trinity National Forest.

REDMAN: I've read that at the time there were some people that were critical of 00:07:00all of the alphabet agencies, sort of there was a caricature of alphabet agencies as people who would dig a ditch and then be paid to fill it back in. But from the sounds of it, there--

MASON: I never heard of that. I think they all did positive work because a lot of things that, if you look around you'll see what they created, are still working--

REDMAN: So things like roads and setting up forest service--

MASON: Cutting steps into national parks--when you climb the steps in national parks, they cut those steps in; they did a lot of things. I never heard anything negative. I only heard positive things regards to the alphabet and all the agencies.

REDMAN: Let's talk about the people that you worked with on the agencies. From the sounds of it, your experience with the NYA, the National Youth 00:08:00Administration, you were working more or less by yourself on these athletic fields. Is that the case?

MASON: I would do the cleaning up myself; yeah, nobody was supervising. You just took it for granted that I was doing what I was supposed to do because the coaches would see that, and the school would see that I was doing my job.

REDMAN: When you were with the CCC, you were part of a larger crew, and--

MASON: Right. We were like the Army actually. We had people over us, and each barrack had someone in charge and all to be sure that we went out and did our job. However, in the daytime we were under the Forest Service, the National Forest Service. In the night time we were under the Army.

REDMAN: Is that right? Tell me about that. That's something that I've never heard of, so the Army played a role in governing the CCC workers?

MASON: Right, as far as I remember, is concerned, yes. In the daytime it was the 00:09:00Forest Service, they were in charge of us.

REDMAN: Tell me about some of the other workers that you encountered in the CCC. What were they like?

MASON: Well, I don't want to brag, but I was one of the few high school graduates. You had a lot of people who weren't; that's why I was chosen to work with the head of the forest ranger--I forgot what they were called--of that area of the Trinity National Forest in northern California. There were not many high school graduates if I remember correctly.

REDMAN: Were they mostly from California, or were they from all over?

MASON: That's something; I think they were from all over. If I remember correctly. Mostly from California, but there were lots from different parts of the country, if I remember correctly. This was a long time ago. I've gone through so many things in my life.

REDMAN: If you can't remember certain details, it's perfectly fine to say that you can't remember. But I'm curious about those workers that you encountered at 00:10:00the CCC, and this is something I'll ask you again about Kaiser and the Marin Shipyards, but sort of your impressions of what other folks in the CCC were like. You'd mentioned that a lot of people maybe might not have been high school graduates or as educated; did that show itself in terms of maybe folks weren't as literate in some cases, or things of that nature?

MASON: Yes, you had a lower socioeconomic element going into a lot of that because there was no other choice. I wasn't aware of education at that time like it is now because the service did a lot to educate people when California gave us a certain benefit and the United States government gave us a certain benefit to go to college. I never thought of going to college or going to school at that 00:11:00time. I just thought I'd get a job, like I was doing letter carrying before I went into the service, and I thought that's what I wanted to do, to be a mailman when I got out of the service.

REDMAN: So can you tell me a little bit about what San Francisco was like at that time, when you're carrying letters around.

MASON: A great city. San Francisco was a great; it was a wide open city. They didn't have red lights over the certain hotels, but they had white bulbs. We high school kids knew what the places were at that time because it was open. But it was under orders, it was very well run, and it was a wonderful city for taking public transportation especially. It had excellent public transportation, getting around in streetcars at that time, cable cars and streetcars.

REDMAN: San Francisco means a lot of things to a lot of people, but today one of 00:12:00the things we think about is people coming in to, maybe young people coming in the city of San Francisco for a good time from around California or from around the United States. Did you get the impression, were people coming in to California to have a good time in the late thirties, early forties?

MASON: Well, I know one thing, that this was a great liberty town. The men that came here in the service loved San Francisco because of the people and the easy way of getting around, San Francisco is a small city in size, and the people were great and very hospitable, and they loved the city. Whenever I would talk to men--I never got a chance to come here except when I had a certain amount of time that they allowed me, but whenever they talked about San Francisco, it was always positive, always flattering, and I was always very proud that I was in 00:13:00San Francisco. When I drove a cab people would say, "You've got a wonderful city here." San Francisco was really highly regarded in regards to the type of city it was.

REDMAN: So you had a certain element of pride that--

MASON: Oh, yeah. San Francisco was always something--when you're in the service you have the Texans always bragging about their area--[laughs] But San Francisco, when you say San Francisco, right away, people perked up their ears and say, "Wow, you're from San Francisco." It's really a city you can be proud of, a great city in every way. Always has been, so you can't let that down.

REDMAN: One of the things I'm going to ask you about is night life during your time at Kaiser and during your time at Marin Shipyards. I'm curious, what in 00:14:00your impression of San Francisco in the late 1930s and then comparing it then again to when the war gets started, what people did for fun in the city. Do you have sort of an impression of how that changed a little over time?

MASON: Well, San Francisco had ballroom dancing; my wife and I were ball room dancers. It was just the essence of the area. I think the climate, because it never got too hot, that kept you going here. And from what I remember the people enjoyed--we had some night clubs here, we had people enjoying whatever they did here. It was easy to get around because it was a small city, and we had good public transportation, and just the whole atmosphere of a cosmopolitan city, all 00:15:00different nationalities, and they all got along. It was great.

REDMAN: Let's talk about Pearl Harbor. Do you remember where you were?

MASON: Oh, yes, I remember that. I was in San Mateo living with my sister. When I heard it I couldn't believe it. I said, "What, they want to screw around--." I used stronger words than that, but "screw around with the United States. What are they doing there? What for?" We never imagined things were going on that were going to get that bad. We were very surprised when it happened and just taken aback. Right away I wanted to join the Air Force, but my eyes, no, join the Navy, no, I didn't have that kind of eyes. Then I said, "Look, I'm going to wait until they draft me."

REDMAN: You initially you tried to join the Air Force and the--

MASON: Yes, because my best friend was in the Air Force.

REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about that. At that point it was the Army Air 00:16:00Corps, is that correct?

MASON: I don't know. I don't remember. But I knew I couldn't get into what I wanted, I just said, "Okay, I'll wait for them to draft me."

REDMAN: So you figured that their sight requirements, their eyesight requirements, would probably change.

MASON: To glasses, right. I wore glasses.

REDMAN: Then you find out about Pearl Harbor and you want to join the Forces, but you're not allowed to as of yet.

MASON: That's the one I want.

REDMAN: You then found work at the Marin Shipyards.

MASON: No, in '42 I went into Kaiser. Marin Shipyards weren't open at that time. I went to Kaiser in Richmond and took the bus over there, and I started as--I guess I was a helper or whatever. I was sweeping and also carrying a fire extinguisher. Then I went to school at night to learn to be a ship fitter, I was 00:17:00getting ninety-five cents an hour just sweeping and carrying an extinguisher. Then I went at night to school, and then when I had enough time in, I got hired as a ship fitter's helper, I guess. I got a dollar five an hour if I remember correctly, and then moved myself up to gradually a dollar twenty an hour, worked there for a while at Kaiser.

REDMAN: I've seen some old video footage of people signing up for the job at Kaiser, and my understanding is that they could sign up for a health care plan and about 98 percent of the people who were offered that option did so. They were given a badge with their picture on it, and they were asked if they wanted to buy war bonds. Do you remember that process of signing up?

MASON: Oh, yes. I don't remember if I--all I know is that at Kaiser they were 00:18:00wonderful to us with regards to health, taking care of us right there; they wanted us to stay healthy. If we had a little sniffle, a little cough, right away you'd go into the dispensary, and they would take care of you right there to keep you on the job.

REDMAN: So you felt like that was a good work environment.

MASON: Oh, yes. We were taken care of. It was Kaiser's own money to keep us there because, from what I understand, he got cost plus.

REDMAN: He had a benefit in keeping you healthy, and it just made sense.

MASON: Exactly.

REDMAN: A historical account that I've read is that Kaiser, the shipyards--one journalist who was traveling around compared it to a scene right out of a Disney movie because the shipyards were so clean. It strikes me that taking care of the 00:19:00shipyard and sweeping and having the fire extinguisher is just common sense as far as safety goes, but was there sort of a worker-morale side of keeping the space clean and nice at the same time?

MASON: Well, they were very conscious of keeping the whole atmosphere neat and clean, although we had people coming from all over the United States. I hate to use the term, but Okies and such people coming from all over to work at the shipyards. And we got along; all races and creeds got along very well, and the shipyards was our bread and butter, and they were very thoughtful, didn't throw papers around or cigarette ashes or anything else, they kept the place very clean, very neat.

REDMAN: Let me ask about that influx of new people because my understanding is that that even started a little bit prior to the war when the US was making 00:20:00ships, or started to make ships for Great Britain, but then as soon as we entered the war just huge numbers of people came in to the Bay Area. What were some of your impressions of those people?

MASON: Well, one of the things was sleeping; I've heard of people sleeping three shifts in the same bed because they were working twenty-four hours. We had the day shift, we had the swing shift, and we had the graveyard shift. The shipyards were going twenty-four hours, and so people couldn't find places to live, and so people were renting out beds and rooms and everything else to people.

REDMAN: What was your living situation at the time?

MASON: There were five of us, and we lived in an apartment, I think it was in the Fillmore district at that time, if I remember correctly.

REDMAN: Was it hard even for you to find housing at that time or--?

MASON: No. We rented; we were already established, had no problem.

REDMAN: Just to clarify; did you work the day shift?

MASON: I worked the day shift, right. But later on at Marinship, I worked different shifts. I was going to get married before I went into the service so I worked the graveyard shift because you got more money for the swing shift than you get for the day shift, and you got more money for the graveyard shift than you did for the swing or day shifts. I wanted to make as much money as possible, so I've worked all three shifts.

REDMAN: Let's talk about your night classes when you were still at Kaiser, working there then taking night classes to learn how to become a ship fitter. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

MASON: Yes, I forgot where it was; I think it was Arguello Street or something 00:22:00like that. We'd go there and we would learn about setting the steel. In other words, our job was to, when the crane, the ship, the riggers going in the crane, we would tell them where to set it. Then we would get the welders to put a temporary weld to hold the steel there. In other words, we told the riggers where the put the steel, and to get these, and always have with us a welder to weld that temporary weld where it was in that place. Also, we'd get the chippers to chip out any steel that was, anything that was there, to chip away so we would have room to put things.

REDMAN: So my next question was going to be what was a typical day like as a ship fitter?

MASON: Breaking the steel down, if I remember correctly, and putting it in place 00:23:00and then having a welder weld it to where it would hold the steel until--temporarily. In other words, we called a temporary welder, and then they would solidify the weld as we [inaudible] the steel was brought in.

REDMAN: So my understanding is that the welders worked in teams, is that correct? There would be like a team of maybe ten welders moving at any particular time?

MASON: No. I don't remember that. I remember I had to go find a welder who wasn't busy, but I don't remember the teams. Now, they might have worked at certain places, the outfitting dock, or the prefitter, because they did a lot of work before it even was brought to the ship.

REDMAN: So that was the prefabrication?

MASON: Right. So maybe they worked there as a team, but I never did get a team 00:24:00to work for me when I wanted somebody to weld something.

REDMAN: So what were the welders like?

MASON: Well, they had those masks. And they were women, they were men, they were all sorts of people who did welding jobs. They had to be skilled of course at that because if they didn't--if a weld didn't hold there would be trouble. They were usually bigger--it seemed like they were bigger people, I don't know. Maybe it was because they on the weld and also the shoulder protecting them.

REDMAN: It almost kind of looks like a surreal alien with this enormous hood. So then what kind of machinery or tools would you use as a ship fitter, or did you mainly--?

MASON: The only tools I had was maybe a compass, like measuring something, just a ruler where things went, and, of course, the blueprints where things should 00:25:00go, reading them where they should go, those were my tools. I didn't really carry; I don't think I carried a hammer. I don't remember carrying anything around with me.

REDMAN: These whirly cranes were pretty magnificent in terms of their size and their ability to move heavy machinery, but heard some people say, "Ah, they weren't very dangerous." Then I've heard other people say you had to be really careful.

MASON: That's right. If they swung the wrong way, if the riggers didn't bring them in the right way, then anything could happen; people get hurt or something 00:26:00like that. I never was any place where anybody really got seriously hurt, so I don't know what happened, but I'm sure they could have if that big beam swung the wrong way and riggers didn't bring them in correctly.

REDMAN: After you completed your work, who would take over from that? After the temporary welds were done and then you'd move the various parts of the ship, who would take over from there? Do you know what the next step was after you were done?

MASON: Well, we would see to it that it was a complete weld or something, to put things where they were in regards to the steel. See, because finally they went-- after the ship was launched they went to the outfitting dock where they stayed for quite some time, I understand, getting completed. We got mostly to where it was a ship that could be floated on water, and from there would go to the outfitting dock to be outfitted to final. But we would put the steel for 00:27:00temporary--I'm trying to think in my hands to describe the sections of the ship so that they can then put in the final touches on the outfitting dock.

REDMAN: We were talking about how diverse the group of welders was in terms of race and gender. Were the ship fitters mostly men at the time when you started, or were there men and women that were ship fitters?

MASON: I would say mostly men. Women came later on I think.

REDMAN: We talked about how people were racially diverse, and a lot of people may not have talked about this the way it would have been talked out today, but did you get an impression, were people diverse religiously, or--?

MASON: There was everything on there, and there was a lot of kidding going on because people were from different states. But it was good kidding. I never saw 00:28:00a fight or anything that was racially, or people coming from different states, I never saw any physical goings on of any--

REDMAN: That's a pretty incredible thing because you think about putting this group together that might not see eye to eye on a lot of other things, but do you think what motivated that was the patriotism or the war effort?

MASON: I think so, yeah. People got along in those days no matter--although blacks were outcasts in regards to what they were allowed. But we just never thought about that at that time. It never came up. I guess later, after the war, is when things happened in regards to racial and things of that nature. But during the war there was never I don't remember any strife between different people.

REDMAN: Now, I want to ask about the men and women working together in terms of actually hanky panky, if there was any sort of that going on?

MASON: I don't remember any sexual goings on that I can think of, of any place where they were doing anything or anything else--

REDMAN: Was there any talk of anyone being gay or homosexual?

MASON: No, we never had that as an issue. Gayness never came to the fore until not long ago, basically, for my age. But I always knew that--we always said, well, if a man acted a certain way or so, I guess he's gay, and I don't think anything was thought of it. It's just that's what he was, and that's--or a woman being gay, we never thought about a woman I guess being gay like a man being 00:30:00gay, we just, women could do things together that we just figure, "Well, that's women." {Inaudible} difference.

REDMAN: So if it was women spending a lot of time together, or maybe being intimate in public in a certain way, you'd think of that as being--?

MASON: No, I never thought of them being dikes or anything else.

REDMAN: How about men, what were some of the stereotypes, this will be the last question [about sexuality]

MASON: We never thought of men going--we thought of men being feminine, but we never thought I don't think of being, actually doing anything homosexual. I don't remember that coming to any discussion or anything like that at that time.

REDMAN: How about the men and the women working together just in general in the shipyards? Did you get a feeling that people were treated somewhat equally, or were there some sexism?

MASON: They were getting equal pay then, so there was no difference of their rate, whatever gender they were. It's just that a certain amount of pay for a certain job, and that was it.

REDMAN: Did you join a union when you first signed up?

MASON: I think they did belong to ship fitters, but after a while, after a certain length of time you did join. I don't remember; it is so vague, so long ago that I don't remember. I think we did belong; we paid dues to a union. I think so.

REDMAN: So you wouldn't remember any of the union activity at Kaiser pretty early on?

MASON: No, there was no activity. I don't think there was anything. People were getting what they thought was good pay for those days, starting out ninety-five cents an hour doing nothing skilled and all, so they were very happy with them, things were cheap then, so it was good money for people.

REDMAN: Can you sort of compare and contrast--I know this is probably a very difficult question to ask--but it seems like working in the CCC would be--

MASON: We got, in the CCC we got three dollars a month, twenty-two went home; we got to keep eight.

REDMAN: Eight dollars a month. And then compare that to what your monthly pay would have been as a ship fitter at Kaiser.

MASON: Oh, I mean, boy, when we went to ship fitting that was good money that we got in those days, and things were cheap. No comparison in regards to what we had for ourselves.

REDMAN: I wanted to ask you if there were women working very early on. My understanding is that as the war moved along more people were drafted or signed up for the service and there would be gradually more and more women working. Did 00:33:00you sort of get that impression that more men were leaving for the service?

MASON: Well, men were going to the service; they were being drafted, and women were stepping in to their roles as regards to pay, yeah, as the war went on.

REDMAN: This is, I guess, the final question I'll ask about Kaiser, and the Richmond area and the East Bay. I wanted to ask about what your impression was of the East Bay changing at that time. How was life changing between, say, if you would have gone over to Richmond or Oakland in the late 1930s versus in '42?

MASON: Well, Richmond became a city because of the shipyards. It became a very busy city, and Oakland became because of the shipyards that filled up a growing city, a busy city. This was a sleepy type of city next to San Francisco, and 00:34:00this really groomed me to grow up in the East Bay because of the shipyards of Kaiser, and Kaiser built his whole establishment there. We belong to Kaiser. I have been a member of Kaiser for sixty years or more, and so Kaiser really made an impression on the whole East Bay.

REDMAN: So you stuck with Kaiser as a health care provider--

MASON: Right.

REDMAN: --even after leaving the Kaiser Shipyards.

MASON: Oh, well, there was a gap, and then we joined again, right.

REDMAN: But was that in any part due to the fact that you received such great health care while you were at the shipyards?

MASON: No, I think because I like the idea of Kaiser where people pay in and you get the health care without having to pay each time, just the philosophy of Kaiser.

REDMAN: Let's talk about the moving from the Kaiser Shipyards over to the Marin 00:35:00Shipyards. The Marin Shipyards started a little bit later, you'd mentioned.

MASON: Right. It was convenient for us, because we lived in that area, just to go across the Golden Gate Bridge. We lived in the Richmond [district] of San Francisco which, as I say, is in the northeast corner and as close to the Marina, Marin County, and that's Sausalito. So it was convenient to go there instead of going all the way around to Richmond from where I lived.

REDMAN: So again were you commuting with your brother and your father or--?

MASON: Right, yes. We drove together.

REDMAN: I understand that definitely at Kaiser and maybe at the Marin Shipyards there was a share the ride program, where people were just encouraged to commute to work together.

MASON: Yes. At the beginning before my brother came back from being a seaman--see, my brother was in the Merchant Marine, but a torpedo just missed his ship, and he said, "No more. I'm staying on land." Then my father 00:36:00decided--he had a business, but then he decided to sell it and to work. So at the beginning I was sharing a ride with some people, and then afterwards the three of us shared the same car.

REDMAN: So this might be a good question. I was going to ask you this a little later, but I have kind of a minor question that you might be able to answer for me. I've seen some ration booklets here at The Bancroft Library.

MASON: Yes, we had rationing for meat, for gasoline, and things like that according to if you worked at a defense type of thing you get some more coupons for gas.

REDMAN: So there are these little hand booklets and then they've got the stamps or the coupons inside.

MASON: Right.

REDMAN: The stamps are blue, and then they have various images on them like airplanes or tanks or so forth. Do you remember how exactly the booklets were used, how those coupons were--?

MASON: I only remember that we had it for gasoline and for meat, I think--

REDMAN: Rubber?

MASON: And for tires.

REDMAN: Right. Shoes?

MASON: I don't remember that.

REDMAN: So then you'd go to the store and then you'd tear out one of these little coupons that were--?

MASON: Right.

REDMAN: Yeah, and this is a silly question, but one that I don't know if we've recorded, do you recall at all if there's a picture of a tank on the stamp, or a picture of an airplane on the stamp, how would you know which one was--?

MASON: I don't remember that. My mother was in charge of the food, and so I never did that. My dad, it was his car, so I didn't take care of that, so I never used any of these coupons myself because my mother was in charge of the food, my father in charge of the gasoline. As far as the other type of coupons, I don't remember them. I just remember the gasoline and the food and the meat.

REDMAN: I knew that was kind of a little bit of an aside, but I was interested in that, and that actually introduces another topic I'd like to ask you about is your mother during the war. Can I ask what a typical day was like for your mother? You said she coordinated the food.

MASON: Yes, she stayed home, took care of the house, took care of my sister, my brother and I, and so she's a homemaker. She stayed home.

REDMAN: I've run across Victory Gardens and canning along--?

MASON: She didn't do any of that. We lived in an apartment.

REDMAN: Let's talk about your decision to move over to Marin. You move over because of the convenience level. Did you take a little bit of a pay cut?

MASON: No, in fact, I got a higher one; I became what they call a premium ship 00:39:00fitter. I got a dollar thirty-two an hour. Because the Marinship paid for those who could read blueprints, who can do, who were experienced and all, so I got more money there than I did at Kaiser. At Kaiser I think I was getting a dollar twenty I think was the highest pay. But Marinship for some reason, I forgot what it was, a friend of mine worked there and said to come over. In fact, it was actually a friend of my brother's, and so when I went over there I forgot what, but I remember getting more money there.

REDMAN: You'd sort of indicated a little how your job may have changed when you moved over and sort of had this new title, maybe a little bit more responsibility, is that correct?

MASON: I ended up with a crew; before I was drafted I had a crew under me.

REDMAN: Can you remind me again what year you were drafted?

MASON: Yes, June 15, 1943.

REDMAN: Okay, so my next question is a 1943 question. I understand that in 1943 the Negro Boiler Makers Union had a strike at the Marin Shipyards. Do you remember that event?

MASON: No, no I don't.

REDMAN: Do you remember there being a Negro Boiler Makers Union, or did you not encounter boiler makers at all?

MASON: No, no, I don't remember.

REDMAN: Again I'd like to ask if you would be willing to compare or contrast the people that you met at the Marin Shipyards from Kaiser. My understanding there again that Kaiser sent out buses to places like the Midwest and the South to try to bring in people from all over the country. Was that a similar sort of thing happening at the Marin Shipyard, or were people just--?

MASON: I don't remember either incident.

REDMAN: Was there an equally diverse--?

MASON: I think you had a higher socioeconomic [group] in the Marinship because 00:41:00of the area covered compared to the Kaiser area which, as I say, brought in people from out of state and all. While I think the Marinship, if I remember; most of the people were from this area working for Marin County and northern San Francisco County. I think a little higher socioeconomic [status]; I'm not lowering the other ones; I'm just saying it was a little different type of people.

REDMAN: So was there one way or another that would manifest itself in terms of working with people? Were there any sort of funny incidences that you--?

MASON: No, I don't remember any.

REDMAN: Let me ask between 1939 and 1943 how the city of San Francisco changed. 00:42:00We talked a little bit about the East Bay and how that was changing; how about San Francisco? How was that changing?

MASON: Well, it was a busy city. You had people, had service people coming here. You had just a busy city activity. This is war, and so you had going on in regards to the Japanese moving out down at Tanforan, which was a racetrack in San Mateo County.

REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about that. Did you have any Japanese friends that you grew up with or--?

MASON: No. I'm trying to think, no, I don't think at that time, no.

REDMAN: So what was your reaction when you learned--?

MASON: I was mad [at the Japanese], I was very mad. I was very mad at the, and I thought, "Oh, good," because I was, I look back, and I was wrong, but at that time I was very, very mad to know we were attacked and I felt for no reason, and 00:43:00I felt that there was people here who look like spies and things. I had all reaction of negative, and now I regret that I had those, but they were taken out and put into camps and things like that. It was very wrong the way they were treated. I've changed since that time.

REDMAN: At the time there was maybe still, it was clear to you that there was lingering anger and resentment over the Pearl Harbor incident.

MASON: Oh, yeah. Yes.

REDMAN: I understand pretty early on in the war with some of the early Japanese victories over American places in Burma or in the Philippines, did that sort of fuel some of the anger pretty early on?

MASON: Oh, yes. I was very, very mad. I was very mad.

REDMAN: But then later on some of your ideas about that have certainly changed.

MASON: Yes. To tell you the truth, when--see I was on Tinian at the time the war ended. We helped build the six B-29s strips that did the bombing of the B-29s, and when the atomic bomb was dropped, although it might sound wrong to people, but I was very happy, because we were slated to go into Japan. And we would be fighting hand to hand, door to door, and when the war ended I was elated. I don't have any feelings against Japanese people, but for that time I was very glad that the war ended and everything was over. I just was--I was very angry, 00:45:00and the idea of their not being punished-- [interruption]

REDMAN: Let me ask you about then eventually joining the service. You were eventually drafted.

MASON: I was drafted, yeah. What happened is I wanted to be any place but slogging through mud as a foot soldier, and so when they saw that I had some experience in construction they put me into the Seabees. I had never heard of the Seabees before, construction battalion, never heard of them before until 00:46:00they put me in there. It was something new for the Second World War, where they had a construction battalion. Not called engineers, but construction battalion. That's where I was put in for my experience.

REDMAN: So then you go straight into the Seabees, and what was sort of, I've asked you now to compare the types of people you interacted with at a couple of places, at Kaiser, and then Marin, and the CCC, going back a little further. But what were the folks like who were in the Seabees?

MASON: Everybody, [laughs] although they were a little higher because they had construction experience, so they were skilled people. I was at a lower skill. I went in as just a seaman, but you had people who got ratings there, who got rating first-class this and first-class that because they had skills. They got a 00:47:00certain rating before they went in because of their skill. Most of them were joined, in other words, volunteer, they weren't drafted. I was drafted, so I had the very lowest rating.

REDMAN: I have two questions about those skills. One is I'd like to hear if anything you learned in the CCC was able to transfer, then, over to helping build airstrips.

MASON: Well, nothing in the CCCs, but my attitude was I was able to take the discipline that I learned at CCCs going into the service. It was easy for me to be sleeping in a barrack with other people, and things like that. The skills that I learned in the CCCs, nothing was transferrable, no, I don't think so. Just the attitude of taking orders and things like that. That we had to do in 00:48:00the CCCs and had to do in the service.

REDMAN: But certainly some of the skills you learned at the shipyards, you felt like were transferred a little bit into your time in the service, or was that again--?

MASON: I guess, possibly, yes, using our instruments and yeah, the discipline and putting things together, and fitting things, finding things and things like that.

REDMAN: Historians commonly sort of think about--or maybe there's just this sort of common idea about World War II in both Europe and the Pacific that one of the ways that we were able to win the war and maintain our fighting forces was that we've got these Iowa farm kids who have taken apart their Model A and put it back together again, so then being able to take apart a Jeep in the field and 00:49:00fix it was something that they were able to do.

MASON: It's possible, right?

REDMAN: It sounds like you grew up taking apart a vehicle and putting it back together--

MASON: Not really. I would watch my father, but that's about all. I wouldn't do it myself. I didn't have that skill.

REDMAN: Do you feel like that was generally the case, with the people that you were working with, that they had some sort of skill that they may have picked up professionally, but they had just sort of general skills that they picked up in life?

MASON: I think a lot of them who came from your central United States acted to work with machinery, possibly farm machinery and other machinery, that they were able to transfer the skill and the discipline possibly. I'm not sure. I can't remember.

REDMAN: Tell me about building an airstrip.

MASON: Building an airstrip--one of the ones when we were on Eniwetok, we were 00:50:00on we built out of coral. We dug coral out of the sea and spread it, and then used a roller out, used a roller to mash it down and water it down. It would grow together, and that would make like concrete, and it was made into an airstrip.

REDMAN: I have never heard of that. They took coral, and so you'd actually sort of harvest the coral.

MASON: Right. We made an airstrip on Eniwetok. And then in Tinian I think it was mostly asphalt because that was a big island. They had to build for heavy planes, the B-29s that bombed Japan, and on Eniwetok it was for, I think, B-24s or B-26s, I'm not sure; it was a trip to bomb the next island. In other words, we were hopping from island to island at that time under--of course, MacArthur 00:51:00planned that out very well, and so--

REDMAN: So now did you learn anything about the local culture or tribes--?

MASON: No. We weren't involved with any people, any native people in any of the islands that we were on. We were just--in Eniwetok we didn't have any intercourse with the people at all.

REDMAN: How about the sort of the national environment? Did the Navy sort of prepare you of what snakes not to touch, or anything like that?

MASON: No. No, nothing like that at all.

REDMAN: Was it a shock at all to go to this foreign place, or was the shock mainly coming from joining the service at all, or did you feel pretty well prepared?

MASON: Shock of the service, and we bombed this island to get on to them and 00:52:00then would get on to them. We would sometimes be involved with the Marines for laying certain things down for them, and things of that nature. There was no--it was just an island without people as far as we were concerned. We would see some people on Tinian; that was a bigger island, because that's one of the Marianis group of islands like Guam and such as that. No, we didn't have any encounter actually with native--oh, one time--yeah there was a stockade of natives and I know one of our men got caught going into it, but so he was court-martialed, some kind of martial.

REDMAN: Let me ask about interacting with other branches of the service. You'd mentioned the Marines, and then it strikes me that--

MASON: They felt very close to the Seabees because we helped them out a lot in 00:53:00getting certain things, cold water; in other words, we were construction, and so we built things as we went along, and so they got the benefit of our improving the situation.

REDMAN: It's often depicted that the various branches of the service will have some rivalry, but I've heard from others a lot of counter examples of people being more appreciative than anything of what the other branches of the service may do--

MASON: The Seabees were fortunate; we made the most of where we were because we had skilled people in taking advantage of maybe something that was left behind from the Japanese or {inaudible}, and we were able to do things--we were able to, for example, a place that made syrup, like for pancakes, and we were able--and they had sugar cane that we were able to then use, make the factory to 00:54:00work. In other words, we were able to get what they left behind; we were able to make work because we had skilled people in our outfit.

REDMAN: Was that sort of part of the calculus when you'd enter new places? What sort of things are left behind in this--?

MASON: We would make it work, yeah. There were skilled people that made it work.

REDMAN: Did you have an impression of some of the stuff that the Japanese did leave behind? Did you think about that at all, or were you just sort of matter of fact.

MASON: Never thought. They were just things that they used then, and we'd try to make it operate.

REDMAN: So then let's talk about the dropping of the atomic bombs.

MASON: I was very happy. I didn't believe it, when it happened, but we knew we saved a lot of lives by--I know a lot of people are against the idea, that it was very heartless, but we were very happy because we knew that we would go in there and we would lose a lot of men. And we didn't want to lose a lot of men, 00:55:00so we thanked President Truman, who people don't--a lot of people don't consider he was a great President, but I rate him as one of the greatest Presidents that we have had in regards to the history of our country. I think Truman was right on top with all of them.

REDMAN: So let me ask about the death of President Roosevelt, actually. Do you recall hearing about that at all?

MASON: Oh, yes. We were scared. We thought, "Oh, what's going to happen now," having him die because he was the god of gods.

REDMAN: I mean he'd been President for your entire adult life.

MASON: Yeah, right! He was the one that we thought we couldn't get along without. Who is this Truman, this man who never had experience, never heard of him? He was picked out of so many different--Roosevelt had a lot of Vice Presidents, but we never thought someone like this would, who was a nothing 00:56:00actually in our eyes at that time.

REDMAN: Then the war does continue on and you're making strides in the Pacific, and then eventually the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so then the war comes to an end, and you'd mentioned some feelings of just feeling pretty ecstatic that it was all over.

MASON: Right.

REDMAN: What happens to you then at the immediate conclusion of the war?

MASON: Okay, the war was over in August, and we came back in December, and then I got my discharge. I started school, going to college, and also driving a yellow cab in San Francisco, and I drove a yellow cab on and off for twenty years while going to school and while even teaching, I would drive a cab.

REDMAN: Between August and December, so after the war ended, did things quiet 00:57:00down, or were you still doing a lot of construction projects?

MASON: No, no, I was out of that. I was out of the service as soon as possible. I got out of the service the 28th of December of 1945. Two and a half years.

REDMAN: So you were ready to be done and to come home.

MASON: Oh, yes. I came home.

REDMAN: Then you used the GI Bill toward school, is that right?

MASON: Right. GI Bill, and also California had its own bill. We got certain--I forgot how much we got--a certain amount of time and a certain amount of money from the California--had it very good for veterans. I forgot exactly what it was, but they took care of us also in California in a separate bill.

REDMAN: You felt pretty good about that in terms of finishing up and then being able to leverage that for some sort of new experiences and new qualifications, so that worked out fairly well for you.

MASON: Yes.

REDMAN: Then you became a school teacher in addition to going to Cal.

MASON: Thirty-two years I taught elementary school.

REDMAN: What level did you teach?

MASON: Elementary.

REDMAN: Okay, so did you bounce around between grades, or--?

MASON: Yeah, well, I taught different grades of elementary, but mostly fifth grade.

REDMAN: You stayed in the Bay Area.

MASON: Right. I taught in San Francisco my first two years, and in South San Francisco for thirty years.

REDMAN: To sort of to wrap up our interview, we've talked about your being born in Detroit, and then going to Los Angeles, your parents being from Europe, and then moving to San Francisco, and your father in the WPA and you in the NYA, and then you in the Civilian Conservation Corps before returning to the Bay Area to 00:59:00go to Kaiser, and then the Marin Shipyards, and then joining the Seabees in the Navy. Is there any sort of other things that you can sort of think about or recall, or favorite memories from this moment in your life?

MASON: I'm trying to think of--no, not really. I have a handicapped son, I have an autistic son, and that's been quite a chore for my wife and I, raising him, he's forty-nine years old and getting certain services for that. That's about all I can say in regards to anything else, and I thank you for your interview. If there's anything else you want to know, I'll be glad to tell you.

REDMAN: Excellent, well, it's much appreciated, and thank you very much.

[End of Interview]

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