Joe Gomes | Interview 1 | June 2, 2006

WILMOT: And here. Okay. Good morning.

GOMES: Morning.

WILMOT: Good morning. Today is June 2, 2006. I'm here with Mr. Joseph Gomes. [pronounces it as if it were Spanish, Gomez, two syllables] And we're here to have a conversation here for the Bancroft Library, the Regional Oral History Office, National Park Service Rosie the Riveter World War Two Memorial Project. So...

GOMES: We got to pronounce the name the way it's supposed to be and that's Gomes. [pronounced one syllable, long o, like Jones]

WILMOT: Gomes.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Sorry I said it wrong.

GOMES: That's the Portuguese version.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: Okay. [laughs]

WILMOT: Good place to start. So can you tell me when and where were you born?

GOMES: I was born March 25, 1916 in San Jose, California. And lived in Milpitas 00:01:00until 1925 when my parents then moved to the city of San Pablo in June. The tenth or twelfth of 1925. And lived here ever since, which is a little over 80 years.

WILMOT: In this house?

GOMES: No, I--in this house I lived here since 1941. So that means 65 years.

WILMOT: Um-hmm, um-hmm. Can you tell me a little bit about your family and where you come from and where they come from as far back as you know?

GOMES: Okay. My parents, my parents came from Portugal. Immigrated to the United States and both of them came through Ellis Island. And that was a traumatic experience for them.

WILMOT: Really? What did they tell you?

GOMES: Well, they had to go through all of the rules and regulations of 00:02:00immigrants coming into this--into the United States. And I think that the most fearful thing, especially for my mother, was the fact that they had to have the physical examinations. And, of course, if they failed the examination they went back to Portugal. And her and her sister came out at the same time. The brother, their brother came to the United States prior to that in the early 1900's. And then he sent for the two sisters. And my dad was already courting my wife--my mother, rather, in Portugal at that time. And then he came over maybe a year 00:03:00later. And they were married in 1915, I believe.

WILMOT: Wow. So did they come from the same place in Portugal?

GOMES: They came from the same region in Portugal then. It was a province that they called 'Behind the Mountain' because that was in the northern part of Portugal near the--close to the Spanish border. And then that's a very well known wine region area. My dad's occupation there was as a cooper making the large wine cask and then he came, came, of course, to the United States as I stated. And he worked at--he worked in the prune orchards out in San Jose area. He also worked for the Southern Pacific Railroad Company at that time. And 00:04:00then--and 1925's when we moved to San Pablo because my mother's sister lived--she married into this family that resided also in Milpitas. But then after the sister was married, they moved to San Pablo, because he had got a job at American Standard, and then he was able to get a job for my dad. And that's the reason we moved to San Pablo in 1925. And we've--I've remained here ever since.

WILMOT: Hmm. Will you tell me your parents' names?

GOMES: My parents--my mother's maiden name was Bellmira Gonsalvez. [spells] And, 00:05:00of course, my dad's name was Jose or Joseph Gomes. I was the oldest offspring--and the second was a sister that passed away in her infancy. And then my brother, my brother Tony was the last born. So there was three in the family. And, of course, that part of the family's all gone. I'm the only survivor up to this point in time. And I went through schools here in San Pablo. Grammar school in San Pablo and graduated from Richmond Union High School in 1936.

WILMOT: I just want to stay for just a little while longer with your family 00:06:00history. What kind of stories did they tell about themselves?

GOMES: Well, my dad was a musician. He played guitar and he played--he used to tell me of the weekends, while he was in Portugal as a young man, they would have these social gatherings. And they'd have the dancing and the singing and then when he came to this country and came here to--.

WILMOT: Could you wait one--

GOMES: --came here to San Pablo.

WILMOT: Mr. Gomes, would you wait one second. This truck is going to come and be real loud for a minute --

GOMES: The garbage truck. Yeah.

WILMOT: Yeah. It's just--it's that day so, I'm just going to wait for one minute 00:07:00til it's-- [moment of silence for truck] Okay. Still pretty noisy. But you were 00:08:00talking about your family and your father was a musician.

GOMES: Uh-huh.

WILMOT: And you were--you were talking about how people used to have different events together.

GOMES: Well, that was mostly--of course, the period I'm referring to now was when my dad was in Portugal. And he used to tell me the stories of his youth in Portugal and of the good times that they had, particularly, you know, on the weekends, where they would celebrate weddings, baptisms, birthdays and--And 00:09:00that's the main thing that I recall of my dad's infancy over in Portugal.

Now, my mother, my mother was of a family that her father was a district judge in that part of northern Portugal. And my mother went to school although she never did complete her schooling because she didn't like school. What she used to like to do is just sew. And that continued all her life as long as she was alive. And then, of course, when they came to this country, as I stated earlier, my dad worked in prune orchards and the Santa Fe Railroad. But my mother, not knowing the language, and her brother having some acquaintances in the San Jose area, at that point in time was able to get a position for my mother as a nanny 00:10:00to the children of the president of the only bank in San Jose at that time. And I used to ask my mother how did she manage to take care of her duties there for that family not knowing the language? And she said--[laughs]--she said it was all mostly by shaking heads yes or no. [laughs] And hand signals, you know. But then she acquired the English language and she done a very good job of learning the English language. Although her education was very limited. But my dad's education was an equivalent of a college education in making comparison between United States and Portugal.

And as I stated earlier he was a cooper. And why he didn't continue his profession here in the United States I don't know. He never did state why. He must have had his own reasons. And like I stated, we moved to here in 1925. My dad went to work for American Standard. He worked there for 35 years.

WILMOT: I have a question. Why did you all choose San Jose? How did they choose San Jose and why not stay in New York?

GOMES: Because her brother, when he immigrated to the United States he immigrated into San Jose. Why? I have never known why. But evidently there was a lot of Portuguese people in the San Jose area at that time. And probably that's the reason why he wound up in San Jose. And as I stated he sent for the two 00:12:00sisters and that's how they wound up in San Jose. And like I stated, my mom worked for the president of--.

WILMOT: The bank.

GOMES: --of the bank in San Jose. Her sister wound up doing the same type of care to two spinster sisters that lived in Alviso, which is adjacent to San Jose. Very wealthy--spinsters--let me put it that way. [chuckles] And of course, as I stated, she married this family that resided in San Jose. And then they moved to San Pablo and he went to work for American Standard and he was the one that acquired a job for my dad in 1925. Because the pay was a lot different then 00:13:00working for the railroad companies, see. So that's when we moved out here to San Pablo. And as I stated, my dad worked 35 years at American Standard and retired from there.

WILMOT: What did he do there?

GOMES: He worked as a grinder. That was putting the finishing touches on the bathtubs. And like I stated, I went to schools here in San Pablo, San Pablo Elementary, graduated from the eighth grade, and went one year to junior high in Richmond, which was Roosevelt Junior High. And then I came to Richmond Union High School and graduated from there. I took a college prep course. I wanted to 00:14:00go into aeronautical engineering at that time which was, you know, an upcoming--upcoming industry at that time. And my dad had the tuition for me to go to the engineering school which was down in the Los Angeles area. Then I had a change in mind, I said I want to work for a short period of time to be able to get more funds and then go to school. So I graduated from Richmond High in January of 1936. I got my job at American Standard in February the fourth of 1936 and went to work for American Standard. And by that time I was already--had 00:15:00a girlfriend which was--eventually became my wife.

WILMOT: Tell me her name.

GOMES: Mary. Her name was -- Her maiden name was Mary Alves. A-L-V-E-S. And started--we were dating. Well, the families, our families knew each other. And when the families visited, of course, she always came with her father and mother. And that's how the relationship got started. So anyway, I got the job in February the fourth of 1936. And we got married in July the 12th in 1936. So 00:16:001936 was an eventful year in my life at that time.

WILMOT: For you.

GOMES: -- at that time.

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: And we got married in July the 12th of 1936. My first--our first offspring was my son who was born in 1937 in June the 10th. So there was that space in there. There was no hanky-panky, anyway. [chuckles]

So, and then my daughter Rosemarie was born in September 29th of 1938. 1938. And we had the two offspring. And I--we've lived here--I've lived--like I said we lived here in San Pablo for the 80--I've lived here for 80 years at this point in time. My wife passed away in April the 15th in 1998.

WILMOT: I'm sorry to hear that.

GOMES: And I've got a son and a daughter, as I stated. Got four grandchildren.

WILMOT: You're so lucky.

GOMES: Got five great-grandchildren and two great-great-grandchildren at this point in time.

WILMOT: Well, you know you're very lucky. You're very lucky.

GOMES: I've--that--I've survived. [chuckles]

WILMOT: Yeah, you're very fortunate just to have those wonderful children in your life.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: I wanted to ask you a couple questions. When you moved here with your family in 1925--no, that's not right. Yeah, it might be right. When you moved from San Jose?

GOMES: We moved from Milpitas.

WILMOT: Milpitas in 19 --

GOMES: I was born in San Jose but we resided in Milpitas.

WILMOT: Where did you move to in San Pablo? Where was your house that you grew up in?

GOMES: Okay. The first place that we moved to in San Pablo was what is now known as Rumrill Ave--Rumrill Boulevard in San Pablo.

WILMOT: How do you spell that?

GOMES: R-U-M-R-I-L-L.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: Bu at that point in time it was an extension of 13th Street in Richmond. So it was known--it had more than one name designated. It was 13th Street at one time. Then it was Kearney Street at another time. And now it's Rumrill Boulevard and I can't tell you the exact date when San Pablo decided to change it to Rumrill Boulevard. Because Rumrill was one of the large landowners here in San Pablo at that time.

So then we lived there about ten years and then my parents purchased a home on Emeric Avenue here in San Pablo which is about two blocks away from where I reside now. And I resided there until I got married. My in-laws had their home 00:19:00over on Market Street in San Pablo. But they also had another rental on Pine Street. So when we got married as a wedding gift, they let me live in their--Mary and I lived in their home for four years rent free. And then when those four year period was up my father-in-law said, "Well, you know the four year period is over." I says, "I recognize that." And he says, "I want you to pay rent." I said, "Okay. How much rent do you want?" He said, "$12 a month." And I said, "Okay." And then we lived there a couple of years, I think it was.

And this home came up for sale. And I saw the for sale sign on it and I said, 00:20:00"We're going to buy that home," I said, "because I don't want to pay rent and all I've got to show for it is a rent receipt." So this home was up for sale for $3,400. And I told my dad I'm thinking of buying this home but I haven't got enough money. And my dad said, "Buy it. I'll loan you the money," which he did. And we moved in here in June of 1941. And I've lived here ever since. And it was all--there were 14 homes in this whole California Avenue. And it had a lot of open space from this site here to 21st Street was all empty lots. And I had the 00:21:00two children. And, of course, now I wanted a little bit more room for them so I thought of the idea of buying the lot next door. So I pursued that and found out who the owner was and we went into negotiations.

WILMOT: Who was the owner?

GOMES: It was a--I don't recall the name but she lived down in Soledad, California, a very wealthy person that owned all the rest of this block.

WILMOT: A woman?

GOMES: A woman. Evidently she was widowed, I believe. But anyway, I negotiated for this lot and she says, "I'll sell you that lot for $200, $50 down payment, 00:22:00$10 a month and no interest charge. So I says, "I'm buying it." Then my dad tried to talk me into buying the rest of the block. I said, "Dad, you've already loaned me this money for the house." I says, "And I only have $400 in the bank." I said, "What do I want all this other property for?" "Well, it might be a good investment." He says, "I'll loan you the money." I said, "No, I don't want to." That was a big mistake because what occurred in December the 7th in 1941 was the advent of World War II. The following year of course, when Kaiser Shipyards came into being in Richmond and people started coming out from the east and midwest 00:23:00to work in the shipyards, they were grabbing up all this vacant land to put in homes so that they could have a place to live. And if I'd of bought those lots I'd have made some financial gains at that time [laughs] which I missed out on.

And I worked at American Standard for 35 years. 25 of the--I started there as an hourly worker. And --

WILMOT: You know, you're going faster than my mind.

GOMES: Okay.

WILMOT: So I have to ask you a couple questions.

GOMES: Okay.

WILMOT: The first one I had for you is just I wanted to know did your mother, did she work when your family moved to San Pablo? Did she get another job or was your father the only one working?

GOMES: No, no. No, no. My mother, after she married my dad my mother never 00:24:00worked again. She was a housewife.

WILMOT: Did she cook? Did she make beautiful meals? Was she a good cook?

GOMES: Oh, oh, yeah, could she cook!

WILMOT: What kind of cooking did she do?

GOMES: Well, you know, of course, she--was adaptable to any type of cooking because--I forgot one point. After we moved to Milpitas, she then got another position as a caretaker for this rich, wealthy Portuguese person that had a very large prune orchard in Warm Springs, California, which was about five miles from Milpitas. And she worked there for a short period of time, not too long. Because 00:25:00my dad wanted my mother at home for the children. Yeah, of course.

And I got to say this. That my brother and I were raised at home, of course, with the Portuguese language, that when my brother and I started elementary school we didn't know one word of English. And the interesting part of that is that--and my mother used to tell me--told me this incident. That she took me to the school there in Milpitas and enrolled me in school. And, of course, she didn't tell the teacher that I didn't [laughs]--I didn't speak English. So the 00:26:00first day when I got home there was a note, the teacher pinned a note on my sweater. And when I got home, of course, my mother didn't--couldn't read, you know, and she waited 'til my dad got home. He says, "Well, what's this?" And my dad said that, "The teacher wants to see you at school the next day to talk to you about Joe and Tony." So when my mother got there she said, "Do you realize that your children don't understand English?" She said, "Yes, I understand--I know that. That's the reason why I'm enrolling them in school is for you to teach them." [laughs] And that's what occurred.

WILMOT: Do you remember, did you go to school with other Portuguese children or--where were the other children from?

GOMES: Well, there was quite a number of Portuguese people in San Jose at that time. I mean, and Milpitas, or I should say. And it's very foggy in my mind what occurred and what process I went through in learning the language. I mean, I just--I just don't remember any part of that. I don't remember any part of that. But I do remember that when we came to San Pablo that my mother said he belongs in the third grade--which I was in the second grade. [laughs] So when I came to San Pablo I was nowhere near the third grade point and they held me back. They 00:28:00put me back in second grade which put me almost two years behind what I should be, you know. And that's why I graduated--when I graduated from Richmond High, most of them graduated when they were 17 or 18 and I was almost--I was 19 when I graduated. So--but that's one part--that's one part of my youth on the learning part that I have no recollection at all, how I learned the language or what I went through at that time.

WILMOT: Did you--sorry. Go ahead.

GOMES: How's that?

WILMOT: Did you have best friends?

GOMES: I didn't hear you.

WILMOT: Did you have best friends?

GOMES: Oh, yeah.

WILMOT: Who were your best friends?

GOMES: Oh, I had a number of them. I still got quite a number of them yet. [laughs] But, of course, my wife turned out to be the best friend. And, of 00:29:00course, my brother was my best friend. And I had my cousins that they had four children. They had five altogether but one passed away. And they were my friends. And, of course, we had all the neighborhood kids who--we were growing up together we were good friends. I also participated in the baseball team. At that time the American Legion used to sponsor the summer baseball tournaments. And I played on the San Pablo team and I played the outfield. I wasn't that good a player. I couldn't hit the ball. [laughter] So that was the extent of my athletic endeavor here in--prior to going to high school. I tried out for the 00:30:00baseball team at Richmond High and I didn't make it. I--like I said, I couldn't hit the ball good enough, so, that was the extent of my athletic activities.

WILMOT: And in this--in the neighborhood where you lived with your family here in San Pablo, was it largely Portuguese families?

GOMES: Well, when we moved to San Pablo, the major portion of the population in San Pablo were Portuguese. And, of course, we moved into a Portuguese community and we rented--the first home that my--like I said, we rented this home on Rumrill Boulevard from a family by the name of Manuel Duarte. And he did a lot of farming here in San Pablo, primarily potatoes and corn and also hay at that 00:31:00time. And then he also had a brother. His name was Tony Duarte and those were our immediate neighbors there on Rumrill Boulevard. And, of course, summer vacations I worked the fields, you know, the potato fields and the corn fields and made a few extra bucks, you know, during summertime. I can recall picking potatoes, big cannery lug boxes for five cents a box and--[laughs] and corn sacking. Put--sacking corn in 100 pound potato sacks for five cents a sack. And, of course, at that time, that was in the '30's, and that was the Depression era. And every cent meant--meant income to the family. At that point in time when the 00:32:00Depression was here with us, and like I said, my dad was working with American Standard. And they had to cut down quite a bit on manufacturing because nobody was buying anything. And my dad was working four days a month and we supplemented the income by working out in the fields, like I stated, picking potatoes and corn. And my dad also worked the fields and at that point when I wasn't working with the piece work--that's what they call piece work, you know, so much a box and so much a sack. Then it was from sunrise to sunset for a dollar a day. And my dad got a little bit more. He got two dollars a day. And we 00:33:00survived the Depression era probably a lot better than some of the other families. Because I can recall my aunt's family--that's my mother's sister that had the four children.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: And he, the husband worked at American Standard also but he got laid off and didn't have any work at all. And at that time we lived down on Rumrill Boulevard and we had chickens and rabbits. And when we fared rather well because then we had potatoes and the corn and my dad had a garden and raised vegetables. And we used that in the household. But I got so tired of baked chicken with 00:34:00stuffing one Sunday, rabbit the next Sunday--it alternated all the time--that even today don't put a roast chicken with stuffing in front of me because I won't eat it. And the same thing with rabbit.

WILMOT: I wanted to ask you during that time, were Portuguese people considered white people?

GOMES: Yes.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: Yes. Well, as you probably well know, Portugal had a lot of foreign territories, particularly in Africa where they had Angola and Mozambique.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: And, of course, there was the inter--intermarriage of it. And they also had possessions in China or what they call Macao. Four square miles in Macao and they had four square miles in Goa in India. And, of course, you know, with the 00:35:00intermarriages there was the situation where people were saying, "Well, there's black Portuguese." Which is true! There was. And there still is. And because we had the Cape Verde islands and that was a mixture of marriages there. But where my folks come from, Continent--

WILMOT: Continent.

GOMES: --we were considered Caucasian.

WILMOT: And you and your family, were they from the Azorian--

GOMES: No, my family is not Azorian. My family was what they called Continentals.

WILMOT: Right.

GOMES: Because we come from the Continental--European Continental--Continent.

WILMOT: Were there communities in the Bay Area of black Portuguese? Were there people here?

GOMES: There was in San Jose--I mean in Milpitas, they had this rich lady, 00:36:00wealthy lady had a servant. And he was black. But he was Portuguese. He had come from Angola or Mozambique. And, of course, I was very young at that time and my dad had a cousin that worked in a dairy which was about a quarter of a mile from where we lived in Milpitas. And he used to go visit his cousin that worked at the dairy on Saturdays. And this one in particular, see--because my dad used to tell me of this incident--that we went to visit his cousin and we went down this alley and this servant was out in the backyard chopping wood. And he was, you 00:37:00know, a black, and when he went--and my dad knew that. My dad knew this person but my dad never did tell me, you know, even though he spoke Portuguese, he was of a different color. So when we went by and I was with my dad and they said good morning to each other and whatever else they conversed about, then I got inquisitive. "How come, dad? How come he's talking Portuguese and he's black and I'm white?" [laughs]

My dad, "Be quiet, be quiet." You know and the answer that the servant gave me was, "Yes, son. Sonny," he says, "I'm black but I'm just as much Portuguese as 00:38:00you are." [laughter]

WILMOT: Did he say that to you in Portuguese?

GOMES: In Portuguese, yes.

WILMOT: How do you say that in Portuguese?

GOMES: [in Portuguese] I'm black but I'm Portuguese just like you.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: And I've never forgot the Portuguese language because I've been involved with the Portuguese community all this time. And, of course, you've probably heard of the traditional Holy Ghost celebrations, particularly--mainly the people from the Azores Islands. And if you're not acquainted with that I'll just give you a quick rundown on what it's all about. It's a religious situation and it happened back in the 1500's when Portugal was a monarchy. And they had a king 00:39:00and a queen. And at that point in time the people that lived in the Azores were going through a famine. And the queen was a very pious person and she sold all the jewels in her crown to buy--to purchase food for those that were starving in the Azores Island. So it's been a tradition ever since and ever since then they gave thanks and went to church and out of that situation came the tradition that still exists today here in the United States wherever Portuguese are at, that every year after the Easter season they celebrate what they call the Holy Ghost 00:40:00parade, you know, in honor of Queen Isabella who sold all the jewels in her crown to get food for the people, the starving people. And we have the Holy Ghost celebration here in San Pablo. We've had it since the 1800's. And as a matter of fact next Sunday we're going to be holding the celebration in San Pablo.

And I also was involved in the Portuguese lodges, fraternal organization, and I joined what they call the Continental Union, which was made up of the immigrants from the Continent itself. And it was to protect each other if they got sick or 00:41:00anything, that they would be taken care of, you know, and if they died that they would be buried with dignity and the whole bit. Okay.

WILMOT: Give me one minute. I'm just going to wait for this to go by, this truck out here. And of course, I'll take this opportunity to move this camera around some more.

GOMES: That's known as the garbage but it's--we call it--they call it recycling now. [laughs]

WILMOT: Um-hmm. [telephone rings] And that's your telephone. [pause]

GOMES: I'm not giving out opinions right now. [laughs]

WILMOT: Oh, I know. They're calling about--because the elections are coming.

GOMES: How's that?

WILMOT: The elections are coming on June 6th --

GOMES: No, I don't know what this is. It's this lady that--she has a few problems every once in a while and she calls me all the time. I cast my ballot and put it in the mail this morning. See, where were we?

WILMOT: You were telling about the fraternal orders that you're part of

GOMES: The fraternal organizations, yes.

WILMOT: But I had wanted to ask you a question also. Well first, of course, please tell me more about that. Your fraternal organizations. You said that "we form associations so that we can take care of each other if we get sick."

GOMES: That's right. And there are several Portuguese fraternal organizations here in the state of California and all have the same purpose. But now it has expanded so much more because they have life insurance policies that you can purchase. They have annuities. They have the whole range of insurance policies, you know. But anyhow, I've been involved with the fraternal organization. I've been involved with the San Pablo--with the Holy Ghost Association, particularly 00:44:00the one in San Pablo. I'm not involved that much anymore because I'm getting beyond the stage of being a young man.

WILMOT: You have different priorities right now.

GOMES: How's that?

WILMOT: Do you have different priorities right now?

GOMES: Yeah. I mean, we'll get to those. [laughs]

WILMOT: Okay. I look forward. The reason why I ask that question about were Portuguese considered white is because I had heard that in--before--after World War II and up until, you know, the 1950's and '60's there were these covenants which sometimes limited--housing covenants so that --

GOMES: Uh-huh.

WILMOT: --so that sometimes you couldn't buy in certain areas--

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: --if you were Portuguese or Italian. And that's why I asked you that question.

GOMES: Well, we never did experience that. I mean, our family never did experience that. Of saying you couldn't buy or you--because of your ancestry. And I've never come across that. And if it occurred, it didn't occur in this 00:45:00area. So I didn't have to go through that.

But anyway like I said, I've been involved with the Holy Ghost celebration. I was direct--I was director for a number of years of the San Pablo Holy Ghost Association. With respect to the fraternal lodges, I belong to the Luso-American Fraternal Federation, which is the largest one in California. I was state president of the Luso-American Fraternal Federation in '71 and '72. And at that time during my term we initiated a little over 700 members and sold over $4 00:46:00million, close to $5 million of life insurance which was very low at that time because they sell millions now.

WILMOT: Who were you selling--whose life insurance were you selling?

GOMES: How's that?

WILMOT: What company of life insurance was it?

GOMES: That's the Luso-American Fraternal Federation.

WILMOT: So they actually had their own life insurance?

GOMES: Yeah. Yes, they do.

WILMOT: Okay, gotcha.

GOMES: As a matter of fact they got--we got branches all over the state of California. We got the one here in San Pablo, the Luso-American Council number five. And we have the youth organizations in--in the organization. They have--and that's for young children up 'til 19 years old. And then until 20. And then they have the 20-30 associates, which is between the ages of 20 and 30. And 00:47:00then you go into the adult class. So it's been an organization that's over 100 years old. Well, well over 100 years old. And I've been involved with that.

So like I said, I worked at American Standard for 35 years. I don't think we got past that. Ten years as a hourly wage employee. And then for 25 years I was in the supervisory capacity. And when they closed the American Standard down I then went to work for Phoenix Ironworks in Oakland and I was there for ten years more as traffic manager. And I've been retired since 1980.

On my community service, as I may as well tell you, that I've been on the City 00:48:00Council--the City of San Pablo since 1977. I've gone through six campaigns. I've been mayor seven times and I'm still on the city council and I will be there--my four-year term will expire in 2008.

WILMOT: So you go to meetings every week?

GOMES: No, I go to meetings twice a month when the formal council meetings are here in the City of San Pablo. I am the City's representative on the solid waste authority that we have here in West County, which is made up of five cities, 00:49:00which is San Pablo, Richmond, El Cerrito, Pinole, and Hercules. So I'm San Pablo's representative on that and I have been since the formation of the solid waste authority. I'm also a founder--one of the founding directors of the Brookside Health Clinic in San Pablo and Richmond. And that's the extent of my political life.

WILMOT: Well, I wanted to ask you something. Given--you've told me this history of your family as people who were immigrants here. What do you think of the legislation that's currently going through Congress around--the immigrant legislation? What is your opinion there?

GOMES: Well, you know, that's a--that's a pretty touchy subject. But I can 00:50:00understand. I can understand. Because my parents were immigrants and they came here for a better life. But they came here under rules and regulations that they had to adhere to or otherwise they would not be in this country.

The legislation that's going through now, I believe those that are here now and make a very good effort to want to assimilate into this country, that they should be given the opportunity to do so. I don't like--I have a problem with some of the provisions that said whatever time period they're here, they have to 00:51:00go back, or, those that have been here another period of time, that they have to pay this and pay taxes and the whole bit. And it's like I said earlier. People come to this country, and this country's made up of immigrants from all over the world. I think it was the duty of this country to make sure that they complied with the rules and regulations of coming into this country. But to penalize those that are here because of the fact that we didn't govern the situation like we should have to make sure that they were here legally, I don't think they should be penalized, you know. And they got their families established here and 00:52:00everything. You know, that's a tough call. It's a tough call.

But I do know this. That here in San Pablo that there are a lot of Latino people here from Mexico, Central America, and all of those countries. I think that the census we had, the last census we had close to 44% that was Latino. And what I've been able to observe of all of those that are here, that they come in here, that they want--they work hard; they buy their properties; they improve their properties and--and especially this part of town is what they call Old Town--because back in 19--when the war started this was a lot of open space, a 00:53:00lot of open space. And they came--and of course, the people came in here and they built all of these substandard homes that we're still dealing with a lot. But they come in here and they improve their properties. They're family people. They mind their own business. And I've got them all around here and I don't see anything that I would say is derogatory. As far as I'm concerned, in my opinion, they've been an asset to the community. And like I say, they're hard workers.

And, of course, you know, back a number of years ago they had what they called the bracero programs. That they would have the people from Mexico come out here 00:54:00and work the farms and the ranches. Lot of times doing the work that other people wouldn't even consider doing. As a matter of fact, it's still happening. So, you know, I'm compassionate of that because of the fact of, you know, my background, and my folks came here to a better life. And that's what they're doing. But, of course, those that come in here that--that are not what they should be, we should take care of that, also.

WILMOT: Okay. Thanks for answering that question. I want to change all my recording material now and put us onto tape number two, okay?

GOMES: Okay. I'm going to run out pretty soon, you know. [laughter]

WILMOT: Are you? Are you? Do you need--do you have something --

GOMES: No, I don't--I mean by that. I mean you're going--putting another tape. I don't know that I can fill another tape.

WILMOT: Oh, run out. I see. You're not going to flee. Okay. [laughter]

GOMES: [laughter]

WILMOT: I was like, oh, you mean you're going to flee?

GOMES: No, no.

WILMOT: Gosh, what did we do wrong?

[interview interruption while recording media are exchanged]

Begin Audio File gomes_joe2 06-02-06.wav

WILMOT: Okay. So you said that you had had the opportunity to go to engineering school in southern California but you chose, instead, to go work, you thought, for a short time. What brought about that change in decision? Why did you make that decision? What was the change for you?

GOMES: Money. You know, because we were just coming off--well, the Depression 00:56:00was still here but not as bad. And I might as well get into that phase of it.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: While I was going to high school I also caddied at the only golf course in this area other than the Mira Vista Country Club and which is now known as the Richmond Country Club. But at that time it was known as the Carquinez Golf Club. And I used to caddy there on Saturdays and Sundays. And of course, the money that we got out of that wasn't very much. But 75 cents for a round in those days with 25 cent tip was a pretty good day, you know. And I always tried to get a couple of rounds to make. So I did that in the interim. And when I 00:57:00decided that I wanted to go to work, I told my dad, "See if you can get me a job at American Standard." He says, "That's going to be hard to get a job there. There's not that many jobs." As it so happened, my dad's boss was one of the golfers that played golf at the country club. And I knew he was my dad's boss. So as it happened, one Sunday afternoon I happened to draw the number that was assigned to him. And it was a mixed foursome: two men and two women. And I got 00:58:00up enough nerve around the fifth or sixth hole to ask him, "When are you going to give me a job?" He said, "What do you mean when am I going to give you a job?" I said, "Well, you're the foreman of American Standard, aren't you?" He said, "Yes." He said, "How do you know that?" I said, "Because my dad is in your crew and he's asked you to give me a job a couple of times." He said, "Well, who's your dad?" And I told him, "Joe Gomes." "Oh, Okay. Let's see what we can do."

So a week later on a Sunday I had completed an early round. I came home and I had a Model T pickup truck at that time. And I came home for lunch and I went 00:59:00back hoping to get another round in the afternoon. And he was looking for me. And he said, "Your caddy days are over." He said, "Come down tomorrow morning, Monday, for your job." [laughs] And I got there in the morning and there were 50 or 70 guys there at the time shack, of course, looking for a job. And I was--I was a midget compared to some of the guys that were there. So I walk up there just as big as daylight. He says, "Just walk right in," he says, "and the timekeeper will take care of you." So I walked in and the timekeeper says, "Who 01:00:00are you and what are you here for?" I told him who I was and what I was there for. He said, "Why would they want to give you a job when they got guys out there that's twice as big as you are!?" And he was shorter than I was. And I says, "You're not any taller than I am!" And I said, "And you're working." He said, "You're a smart-aleck, too, aren't you?" I said, "No." I says, "I'm telling you what I'm seeing." I said, "But call up Mr. Bates." See, that was the foreman, "and he'll tell you whether to hire me or not." So he called him up. He says, "Hey, I got this young kid out here that says you've given him a job." He says, "That's right. Write him up." And he hung up and he says, "Oh, I guess he 01:01:00knows what he's doing." [laughs]

I went to work and like I stated earlier I worked there 35 years.

WILMOT: Tell me, when you first started doing the work how did you learn how to do it? Tell me what you did exactly.

GOMES: Well, when I first started there I was just doing miscellaneous jobs, you know, different operations on accessories that went with bathtubs and wash sinks and laundry trays and what have you. But the most of the work was done piecework. In other words, you got so much money for every unit that you worked on. And after a short while I then was able to get on one of the piecework crews that was made up of maybe five or ten guys. And then I went on the piecework 01:02:00crews and I stayed on the piecework crews until--until the war came along. And I was doing rather well financially, you know, at that time. And then the war, of course, came along and it shut the plant down.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: And like I stated earlier, they converted it over into war alert. And I came back to American Standard where they were manufacturing hand grenades and incendiary bombs.

WILMOT: So did you learn how to do that?

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: What did you make?

GOMES: Well, when I came back from the shipyard I went on the casting line where they cast the incendiary bomb. And that was piecework.

WILMOT: So you were pouring metal?

GOMES: Pouring metal. Pouring the magnesium. And if you turn around, right behind--I got the bomb there. [points to long cylindrical metal object resting against the wall]

WILMOT: Is that this one?

GOMES: That's it. Okay. When I came back to American Standard, and I went on the casting line, this is what we cast. And that was piecework. And we were making around 35 to 40 dollars a day back in 1941--'42 rather, when I came back.

WILMOT: That's amazing.

GOMES: This is a cast iron nosepiece, which is a weight. Makes it heavier. See in there. And when it was dropped from the airplanes it went straight down. See, and when it hit the ground it set off the firing pin, which is right up here. [holding the bomb]

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: And inside was the firing powder. And when it heated this up then it splattered all over the place, you know. And that's what I did when I came back to American Standard and I worked on the casting line. But then I was allergic to the smoke that emitted from the melting process and I was just a complete 01:05:00rash and I had to give up that job. So--.

WILMOT: How long did you work that job?

GOMES: Maybe a couple of months.

WILMOT: Did you think about how those things were going to be used?

GOMES: Oh, yes. But, you know, at that time there was that patriotic feeling. And what they had perpetrated on this country. And that was foremost in our minds, that we were helping an effort that the United States had to protect itself. I had another incentive--my brother. My brother was drafted into the army in 1941. In February of 19--yeah, February of 1941. And, of course, when 01:06:00Pearl Harbor hit in December of '41, he was already in service and he stayed in service for five years. He fought in the Battle of the Bulge. He was wounded twice while he was in Europe. And he received two purple hearts--a purple heart and a cluster. And he also received the bronze star for meritorious duty--service. Because when the Germans came through on the Battle of the Bulge, his lieutenant--they wanted to make my brother a lieutenant in the field and he 01:07:00rejected it. He was a tech sergeant. But in other--on a death skirmish on the Battle of the Bulge he--the lieutenant was killed right off the bat and my brother took over the command of the platoon at that time. And during that battle he lost all his men but seven. And that's why he got the bronze star. And that wasn't what he told me. It's what I read in the citation from, you know, the army.

WILMOT: Did he write you letters while he was away?

GOMES: Couple of times.

WILMOT: Yeah?

GOMES: Couple of times.

WILMOT: What did he tell you? Do you remember?

GOMES: Well, what he told me was how bad it was in the Ardennes Forest during the wintertime. And snow up to his knees and up to his hips and how cold it was. 01:08:00And the scouting duties that they had to do, that's how he got wounded the first time because when he was out on a scouting situation and one of his men hit a land mine and blew off his leg and it blinded my brother temporarily.

WILMOT: What's his name?

GOMES: My brother?

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: Tony.

WILMOT: That's Tony?

GOMES: Tony Gomes, yeah.

WILMOT: Right. You did tell me that.

GOMES: Yeah. He was--Okay.

WILMOT: Did he come--when he came back he came back that war--?

GOMES: Yes.

WILMOT: Was he a different person?

GOMES: Somewhat. I know that when he came back he had two weapons. He had a small handgun and then he had a larger weapon, a 9 millimeter special, Belgian 01:09:00made 9 millimeter which was a semiautomatic 45. And the first thing he did was--he says, "I want you to take care of this gun for me." I says, "I don't want any guns in my home." He said, "Take this gun." He said, "You keep it wherever you want, in your trunk or whatever." Took me a lot--I said, "Why?" He says, "I don't want to talk about it." And the situation was--I finally found out that he had to use it and he didn't want it. And I still got it because my brother passed away in 1980 with Lou Gehrig's disease.

WILMOT: I'm sorry to hear that.

GOMES: But like I said, he was wounded. Got shrapnel on his shoulder that he 01:10:00was--he was in the hospital in England for four months. He recovered from his war wound.

WILMOT: Did he go to college before the war?

GOMES: No.

WILMOT: And was he married before the war?

GOMES: Yes, he was. He was married before the war and unfortunately that marriage was dissolved. But when he came home he stayed with my folk until he got reestablished. And my mother used to tell me quite often he was fighting that battle in his bedroom. He'd wake--she'd wake--he would wake up my parents and they'd go into the bedroom and he would be in the bedroom. There--let's wait 'til it goes by. [pause while garbage truck passes by outside]

WILMOT: Want to wait a minute.

GOMES: Like I was saying he would--he'd be there fighting that battle all over again and that was kind of depressing to my mother, of course my dad, too.

WILMOT: You stayed home; you weren't drafted. Why was that?

GOMES: No, I was registered, of course, for the draft. And let me tell you that situation. Of course, I was already married and I had the two children. But I was in the draft pool. And I was working at American Standard, of course. I had 01:12:00already injured my hand and I injured this at American Standard.

WILMOT: Can you put up your hand so we can see it? Put it maybe right up here? [shows]

GOMES: What was that?

WILMOT: Can you show your hand so people can see your hand? Do you want to put your hand up?

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: That way we can see it.

GOMES: Yeah. [shows his hand] Okay. I was--I told you earlier the incident of being allergic to the magnesium process. They then assigned me as lead man on the graveyard shift where we were grinding these nosepieces. And it went through this machine--and I won't go into a complete explanation on this but anyway, had two large 24 inch grind wheels that these nosepieces would go through to grind 01:13:00them down to the right size after they were cast. And I had a new crew and they didn't know exactly how the operation reacted when one of the wheels wasn't operating. So that's what occurred. And then the fuses had blown. And I was--and we had the maintenance man replace the fuses and I was trying to dress out the gauge that was on that grinding wheel when they went through with the motor not operating.

[phone rings] Let it ring. They can put their message on the machine.

So anyway, I injured my hand. I lost a finger and ground off all the ligaments 01:14:00on these other two. And I was called-- [answering machine]--okay, I know who that is.

WILMOT: "It's only me."

GOMES: [laughs] It's only me. Anyway, I was up for induction but because I was the lead man on the crew, you know. And of course, you know, at that time with all the young people in service there weren't very many males around. It was mostly females that are doing, you know, the heavy part of the work there.

WILMOT: Working with you at American Standard?

GOMES: How's that?

WILMOT: Working with you there at American Standard?

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: So anyway, the manager came down and he got notice that I was to be 01:15:00inducted the following week. And he came to me. He said, "Don't you realize that you're going to be inducted?" I said, "Yes." He said, "We can't let you do that." I said, "Why? I'm no better than any of the rest of them. My brother's there. And anyway, I've got this handicap. They'll probably throw me out." [laughs] But he says, "We can't take that chance," and he arranged it that then they reclassified me as 4FD or something like that. You know, and I never did go into service. But to be honest with you I've had a lot of people ask me "Weren't you ever in the service?" I said no. I feel kind of guilty sometimes on that.

WILMOT: Well, we needed, you know--

GOMES: But I did my part.

WILMOT: Yeah. I wanted to ask you also do you remember hearing about Pearl Harbor? Remember the day that it happened?

GOMES: Oh, I can tell you as if it was yesterday. It was Sunday morning and it was rather nice outside. I had a four door 1937 Chevy or some four door Chevy and I had it parked out in front when we still didn't have sidewalks and curbs. And I had my son and daughter and they were playing in the backseat, you know. And I was just--I had the radio on, was listening to the radio. I looked in the rearview mirror and I could see anti-aircraft guns going by on 23rd Street. Because at that time we had the National Guard armory on Carlson Boulevard but 01:17:00it was an anti-aircraft battalion that was there. And I says, "Oh, I guess they must be having some maneuvers." I had the radio on but it wasn't on, you know, the news station or anything like that. So the kids said--the children said, "We want to go in the house, Dad." So I said, "Okay." So I come in the house and I says, "Mary," I says, "I saw a bunch of anti-aircraft guns doing down." She said, "Japan just bombed Pearl Harbor." That's how I found out. But I was out there sitting in the car and unaware of what had happened.

My brother was on leave from Fort Ord because he was in the 7th Infantry Division at that time. And of course, the message was out on the radio after the bombing for all military personnel to report back to their units. My brother 01:18:00left that afternoon back to camp, to Ford Ord. We never heard from him again until December the 20th or something. And it was just a small postcard that he had sent from where he was at, which was up near Fort Bragg at a place they call Russian Gulf. And they had just--one of those miniature Japanese submarines had sunk a lumber schooner up there and so they sent part of his unit up there, you know, to guard the shoreline and what have you. And so he stayed there for some 01:19:00time. And then came back to Ford Ord and they assigned him then to a training cavalry that sent him to Mississippi. They reactivated the 99th Infantry Division, which he became a member of. And they trained the division there until they got ready to go to Europe.

WILMOT: Do you remember the internment? Were there any Japanese people in San Pablo who were interned?

GOMES: Well, we had the Japanese people that had the flower garden in the county area of--San Pablo was an unincorporated town at that time--so we were county 01:20:00but they were over in the other side of the track where they had the hothouses for their flowers. And, of course, you know, they relocated them immediately. And--and, of course, you know the feeling at that time wasn't sympathetic, you know, to them at all. And, of course, the Italians got involved a little bit later because of Mussolini and Italy's connection with Germany and Hitler at that time. But I don't recall too much of the relocation of the Italians or anything like that.

WILMOT: Did you know where the Japanese went? Were relocated to?

GOMES: Well, all I know is what--back somewhere up north. I don't remember--I don't remember the exact area where they went to. But it was quite a ways away 01:21:00from here. And what I've been able to learn about the relocation of the Japanese and what I read in the papers and magazines, you know.

WILMOT: So at the time there wasn't a lot of information?

GOMES: No, there wasn't. No, there wasn't at that time. We knew that they had taken them out of here and as it turned out, the ironic part of it that one battalion of Japanese Americans, the most decorated unit, you know, and the deprivation that they had to go through had to be traumatic for them, no doubt about it.

WILMOT: And so you didn't have any like friends from high school who were Japanese or who you knew their families--

GOMES: Oh, I knew--I--no, I knew--I knew some of the Japanese families that lived there. As a matter of fact, some graduated--I had two of them that graduated in my class. And--and, you know, and they had to go. But, you know, that period during the war was not easy for everyone. And we rationed sugar, we rationed tires, we rationed gas. But I was pretty lucky with the gas situation because of the fact that my brother went to war and he had a car and I got all his ration stamps. And my brother-in-law, who came to this country from Portugal, and my wife also. And I'll tell you that story in a minute or two. 01:23:00They came over here--the father came over here first and then he sent for them. But my wife was nine years old and my brother-in-law was seven years old. And also he had a car. So I had the ration stamps for them for--from both cars. So I never suffered for gas or tires.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: But and then they had sugar, they had all kinds of the other stuff that was rationed at that time. And I want to get back to the situation of my wife coming here when she was nine years old.

WILMOT: I have several questions about her, yeah.

GOMES: Okay.

WILMOT: But you go on. I wanted to know, she came when she was nine from--what part of Portugal did she and her family come from?

GOMES: She came from the central part of Portugal. My parents came from the northern part, as I stated earlier, and she came from the central part of Portugal. My father-in-law came over here I don't know how many years prior to 01:24:00them and never made an effort to go through the citizenship situation. Which, if he'd have done so, when the mother and the brother and sister came over here, they would have automatically been American citizens at that time. So that didn't occur. So when World War II came along and Portugal was neutral and they were accepting people from that part of Europe that were trying to escape, you know, the rigors of--of the war.

WILMOT: Are you referring to Jews from Germany? Are you referring to Germans?

GOMES: Yeah, again, you know, might have been some Germans themselves, you see.

WILMOT: Okay. Um-hmm.

GOMES: And that concerned me quite a bit because of the fact of the relocation of the Japanese and all this other bit. And then I finally realized that Mary was not a citizen. I says, "You're becoming--you're going to become a citizen as of now!" So we started going through the process and when she finally--she did get her citizenship papers, okay.

WILMOT: Was it a struggle? Was it a struggle?

GOMES: No, it wasn't. No, because [chuckles] I was the mean teacher, you know. But what my brother-in-law did, he volunteered for service. And he automatically became a citizen. So I told the wife, I said, "You're going to become a citizen because of the fact of the neutrality of Portugal. You never know what's going 01:26:00to happen." I says, "We're going to have to do it." Oh. I says, "We are going to do it." Well, eventually she got it. And since--and it was rather easy for her. And at that time we had the preliminaries to go through. And it was all done in Martinez. In the superior court. And when Mary was ready for the interview and what have you, she was pretty well-versed on the Constitution, no two ways about that. And she had to go to the preliminary interview and answer some questions, which she done very well. And I was one of her witnesses. And the neighbor 01:27:00across the street who passed away was the other witness. And when she went before the superior court for the final ceremony, they interviewed the witnesses also.

So the superior judge happened to live in Rodeo and his name was Judge Jacoby. And I went up and sat in the witness chair and he started quizzing me. He said, "How long you been married?" and all of this and stuff. And, of course, Rodeo had a large Portuguese population and first thing he asked me. He said, "Your wife a good cook?" I says, "Yes, sir." "Does she cook codfish?" [laughs] Because 01:28:00that's one of the Portuguese dishes, you know. I says, "Yes, she does." I said, "Otherwise I wouldn't have married her if she didn't know how to cook codfish." [laughs] He got a big kick out of that, you know. But anyhow, when it came time for her to answer questions he asked her two questions and she answered them correctly. He says, "Oh, you're good enough." So she was sworn in as a citizen.

WILMOT: And what year was that? What year was that?

GOMES: '43, I think.

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Wow. That's an amazing story. Wow. I have more questions to ask you but Right now I'm just still focused on the war years. So she hadn't wanted to become a citizen? Why not?

GOMES: It wasn't that she didn't want it. She just didn't want to go through the 01:29:00process. Why, I don't know. I don't know why.

WILMOT: It was just a barrier?

GOMES: Yeah. She just put it in the back of--she went to school and the whole bit, you know.

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: And it wasn't that she didn't know the language because she knew it very well. But it was one of those things if I don't have to do it, I'm not going to do it, you know.

WILMOT: Did you all speak Portuguese in your home? Did you two speak Portuguese in your home? You raised your children speaking Portuguese?

GOMES: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. [laughs] Yeah, that's another situation. When we got married, of course, mother and daughter always wanted to go shopping, you know. So I was saddled with taking them on a Saturday. And, of course, being newly married, you know, you're not going to say, "No, I don't want to go shopping with your mother." [laughter]

So I'd go shopping with them, you know, and they'd want me to come out. My wife 01:30:00said, "Come, come with us," you know. I said, "No, I'll wait in the car." "No, come with us." And at that time there wasn't very many foreign languages spoken out in public. And invariably, my mother knew--understood and spoke the American language. But, of course, it was easier to do it the other way. And we'd go to--their favorite store was HC Capwell in Oakland. And, of course, they'd be there chattering away in Portuguese and everybody goes by and they turn their head, you know.

WILMOT: Like what would it sound like?

GOMES: Yeah?

WILMOT: What would it sound like?

GOMES: What did it sound like? Well, it sounds like the Hispanics that go by here in front of the street here now. But I understand a good portion of it, you know. And it sounds different. You hear them coming from high school and they're 01:31:00talking Latino instead of talking American, you know. But--so that--and I told them, I said, "Talk in American, for crying out loud. You people attract attention here." Oh, my mother-in-law says, "Oh, what difference does it make?" I says, "I'll tell you." I says, "If you don't talk American," I says, "I don't want to be around you guys." Ooooh, yeah, boy, that didn't put me in too good a position, you know. So anyway, I said, "I mean it!"

So the next time we just--

WILMOT: What were you scared was going to happen?

GOMES: I didn't tell them what was going to happen. I told them--no, I would tell them I'll stay in the car and wait. But they wanted me to come along. Well, of course, the wife wanted me to come along. So they did it and I walked away 01:32:00from them. I says, "If you can't find the car, tough luck!" As you know where it's at. [laughs] And then--from then on they did, you know, speak the English language.

But it was quite a number of years later the wife and I were down the 9th Street Housewife's Market--I forgot what year it was--and we went there to shop. And we were going to where the fish was at and then in the aisle way was this group of people talking. And as we went by, lo and behold they were talking Portuguese. And I kind of glanced at my wife and she had this smile on her face. I said, "What are you smiling about, Mary?" She said, "Didn't that sound awful?" [laughs] I says, "It did." I says, "What do you think you two, you and your mother sounded like a few years ago?" [laughs]

WILMOT: It sounds like she was making a joke with you.

GOMES: [laughs] Yeah.

WILMOT: Why were you concerned that they not speak Portuguese in public? What was your concern?

GOMES: Well, it's just like I said. At that time there was very few foreign languages, being spoken. And most of the people that were of foreign extraction were making valiant efforts to talk, you know, the native tongue. And I firmly believe in that even today. That's fine to keep your heritage. But when you're out in public, there's other people that don't understand what you're saying and they might say, "I wonder what they're saying about me." And I'll give you a classic example which happened with me at American Standard. And I was in supervisory force and I had to do what I had to do but I spoke to him in 01:34:00English--in American. And they were Spanish, you know, and I understand Spanish. So this one person wasn't doing the job like he should be doing and I had to reprimand him. At that time, all the supervisory personnel and the--and the regular people all changed and showered in the same building. Well, this one particular guy was still stinging from what I had told him because he understood part of what I said. But he was talking with his buddies in Spanish and the buddies knew that I understood Spanish. And I was in the same shower room and he was berating the heck out of me, saying, "I'm going to get him outside and I'm going to beat him up." So the guys were looking at me and didn't say anything. 01:35:00And he went to his locker and dressed up and I was dressed up. And I went over to him, tapped him on the shoulder, and told him in Spanish, "I'll be waiting for you outside." I said, "See who's going to get beat up then." He said, "You understood everything I said?" I said, "Everything." He says, "Don't fire me." I said, "No, I'm not going to fire you," but I said, "We'll meet outside." He said, "Oh, no, no, no." [laughs]

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: But that's a classic example of speaking your language--speaking the predominant language no matter where it's at.

WILMOT: I had wanted to return to the wartime.

GOMES: Okay.

WILMOT: But I'm--you gave me ideas for more questions to ask. Every time you talk you give me more ideas for more questions. That's why these last so long.

GOMES: Okay.

WILMOT: I wanted to ask you about--we already talked about intern--during the war were you aware--do you remember hearing about what was happening in Europe as far as the Nazis and the Holocaust in Germany? Did you know about what was happening to the Jewish people in Germany?

GOMES: Oh, yes.

WILMOT: How would you hear about it?

GOMES: In periodicals, the newspaper.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: And, you know, and, of course, radio. Television wasn't--we didn't have television. I didn't have television at that time. I forgot when I got my first television set. But, of course, what I knew of what's going on was from newspaper, from radio, and-- [truck goes by outside loud]

WILMOT: They just keeping coming by, huh?

GOMES: Oh, that's a final run so we won't be bothered with them after he leaves here.

WILMOT: It's interesting. So you told me you were a city council person, that 01:37:00one of the things you worked on was solid waste.

GOMES: Yes, that's right.

WILMOT: And now we have these garbage trucks going by all the time.

GOMES: Our--of course, our pickup date is Friday.

WILMOT: Oh.

GOMES: Yeah. So anyway, like I was saying about the Holocaust. And of course, you know, that didn't come up right at the beginning of the war. It had come out later when it was--became apparent that it was quite a serious situation. And of course, picked up more of really what was happening when magazines--Life magazine would--down in the basement I've got stacks of articles up that I would save from the Life magazine that I've got downstairs, you know. All on World War 01:38:00II. I've got numerous books on World War II and maps and what have you, because of the fact that my brother was there and I tried to keep up and read anything that was available. And, of course, magazines at the time. Life magazine and other magazines which I don't recall started, you know, publishing what was occurring over there. And, of course, you know, we were all concerned about that and eradication of a race that never did any harm to anybody. And wondered just how widespread that was going to be.

WILMOT: Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also about the bombs that were 01:39:00dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima to end the war. Those nuclear bombs. Did you know--do you remember hearing about that?

GOMES: The only--of course, we knew that we had a weapon that was very destructive because of the testing that went on in New Mexico and just wondering when it was going to be used. And when it did happen, of course, you know, I had compassion for what it did in Japan. But also, at the same time, I was relieved 01:40:00after they surrendered that it didn't cost any more lives.

WILMOT: That the war was over?

GOMES: That the war was over with. But it took--I don't know how President Truman could live with the situation. But he had to. You know, and if they hadn't dropped that bomb, how many more young lives were going to be destroyed in trying to invade Japan? Because that was going to be--that would have been a monumental struggle. There's no two ways about that.

WILMOT: But at that time did you even know about the damage of the bomb? Did you really have a sense of it or did that come out much later?

GOMES: No, all I know--all I know was--well, I became aware of--of the massive 01:41:00destruction is when we finally--and I forget what period of time, how long it took for us to find out and have actual photos of what occurred.

WILMOT: But that wasn't during the war or it wasn't in that time period? It was later?

GOMES: Well, it was shortly after--it was shortly after Japan surrendered, of course.

WILMOT: And that's when you learned about...

GOMES: That, you know, then when they surrendered, then we occupied. And that's when, you know, the information started coming out. And one of the fellows that has coffee at the senior center was in Nagasaki shortly after. He was in the--he was in the gun crew of one of the liberty ships that went in there. And he said, you know, you can't even talk of how--describe how, you know, how massive the 01:42:00destruction was. But, of course, you know, it's what had to be done. Had to be done.

WILMOT: How is the war that we're in currently differently from World War II? How is the war we're in now with Iraq different from the war then? How does it feel different being at home or how is it different--a different war?

GOMES: Well, it not only--not only this war now, the one that I had problems with then was the Korea and Vietnam. And my personal feeling with this war that we're in with--in Iraq. It's the same thing. We went into Iraq--why did we go 01:43:00into Iraq? Because of the fact that we had investigative teams that went in there to verify weapons of mass destruction at the command of the current president. The teams were in there that never did verify conclusively that there was weapons of mass destruction. And we went in anyway. And look at the results that we're getting out of it now. We have not--my way of looking--my way of thinking we have not accomplished anything. We're trying to force democracy on them without conclusive proof that that's what they want. And the part that 01:44:00bothers me considerably is the young lives that are being destroyed. But what we really don't know is how many other lives of people that were not killed but have been maimed, have lost arms and legs, and it's pretty extensive. And we have not accomplished what we wish to--what our current president ultimately wanted to establish--and that is a democracy.

There's no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein was a sadistic person. But the infiltration that we're having there now--and it's not coming from within; it's 01:45:00coming from without. And we're not able to stop it. We've had to bring in more troops and how many of those troops are going to be killed? It's something that concerns me. But I--I can understand part of it. But when you don't have conclusive proof that something has occurred, you've got to tread lightly.

WILMOT: During the war, how did this area change? During World War II.

GOMES: How'd this area change?

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: Oh, considerably. Of course, as I said, San Pablo at that time was an unincorporated area. It was known as the 10th township of Contra Costa County. Population I don't recall but it was not--it wasn't much more than 2,000 people. 01:46:00And, of course, when it started changing, of course, was in 1942, as I stated earlier, when people starting coming out from the east and the Midwest and the south to go to work at the shipyard. That was a massive change, not only in San Pablo but Richmond, Oakland. Because of thousands of people came to work at the shipyards. And, of course, I don't know what percentage, but it had to be a large percentage, never did go back to where they came from. And they stayed here and the increase in populations continues all along. And for how many years 01:47:00it's been since World War II. But there's been many positives. There also has been many negatives, and that's not only in San Pablo but all over. And changes will always occur. Some good, some bad. So you got to take the good with the bad.

WILMOT: That's right. When you worked--you worked in Kaiser Shipyard, too?

GOMES: Yes.

WILMOT: Yeah. What was that experience like? For 11 months.

GOMES: For 11 months.

WILMOT: Yeah, what was that like?

GOMES: I'll tell you, that was not the most memorable period for me. Because I worked the graveyard shift during those 11 months, on the negative side. But on 01:48:00the positive side, we were doing something to aid the war effort. And I can't say that I hated the job. I didn't like that type of job because it was too hectic compared to what I'd experienced at American Standard. But the most memorable part, period, was when we worked on that prefab ship, the Robert E. Peary, which we put together in four days and I don't know how many hours, and my effort on that. Because I was in the pre-assembly part of it where I was crew chief on--we'll call it the punch press. And that's where we punched the rivet 01:49:00holes on the ribs of the ship and on plates that had to be formed. And that was part of my job. And that period of time when we did the Robert E. Peary, they would put those ribs of the ship on the bending slabs. They would put it in these furnaces that would heat up the channels that would form the rib of the ship. And then bring them out on a slab and form them because they had certain design areas designed right on the slabs itself with pins, where they would bend these slabs with bars and automatic air pressure and the whole bit. And then 01:50:00they would come to my punch press where we had to punch the rivet holes in there. And those slabs were hot. We all had to wear asbestos gloves and a whole bit, and you know, and that was a satisfying experience for me because of the fact that it was something that was innovative. That it was--then they went in and it continued all during the rest of the period that Kaiser was building the liberty ship. And the victory ships, also. That I was part of being able to do something that was unprecedented at that time, you know. And that was the most memorable part of working at the Kaiser Shipyard. But when American Standard got 01:51:00the contracts--

WILMOT: Who did you work with in the shipyards?

GOMES: Well, I had, I had mostly women.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: My dad worked on my crew. [laughs]

WILMOT: You had your own crew?

GOMES: Uh-huh.

WILMOT: You were a supervisor of a crew?

GOMES: Yeah, I was the crew chief of the punch press.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: Yeah. At that one unit. There was others, you know. And they each had their own crew. Yeah. My dad was in my crew, you know.

WILMOT: What was it like supervising your dad?

GOMES: Oh, I got to tell you this one. I got to tell you this one. It occurred at American Standard before the war. No, it was after the war, after the war. During the war period when my dad worked on my crew, there was--you know, it was 01:52:00okay. He was just another member of the crew and he knew what he had to do and I knew what I had to do, you know. But when he came back to American Standard and after the war and we started back manufacturing tubs and wash sinks again, I was the assistant foreman of that department. And the head foreman told me of a change in procedures that we had to make. And I said, [laughs]--I said, "You're giving me that duty and I got to tell my dad this?" And I knew how headstrong my dad was, you know. So I says, "Well, how am I going to do this?" So there was seven men on the crew that I had to notify of this change in procedure. And I left him for last. And he saw me going to each one of them guys and I saw him 01:53:00watching me, you know.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: So came to him and I said--and he goes like this to me, "What's going on?" I said, "I'm going to tell you, Dad. You're not going to like it but you're going to do it." He said, "Okay, what is it?" And I told him what the procedure--. "You guys are crazy, you don't know what you're talking about." I said, "Dad," I says, "whether we know what we're talking about or don't know what we're doing, it's going to have to be done." "Well," he says, "what if I don't--what if I don't do it? I've been here a lot longer than you guys have." I said, "That's right." I said, "But you see that gate outside?" I said, "You don't do it, it's not going to be me walking through the gate, it's going to be you." Oh, that cut him down good, you know. So he came home and my mother told 01:54:00me what transpired. And he was really angry. She said, he said, "You know what that kid told me today? He's still wet behind the ears and he told me if I didn't do what he said, he'd fire me." And my mother said [laughs] my mother said, "Well, what was it? What was it?" "Well, they changed this, they changed it." My mother says, "Well, don't you realize he was doing his job?"

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: And all you have to do is do your job, whether you think it's right or wrong. He thought about it and he walked from [Emorick?] over to--I was still living on Pine Street. He came and knocked on the--. We had a full basement downstairs and you had to climb up the stairs.

WILMOT: With your in-laws, right?

GOMES: Yeah. Yeah, at the in-laws house.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: So he knocked on the side of the house and I came out. I said, "Hi, Dad. Come on up." "No, no," he says. "You come down here. I got to talk to you about something." I said, "Okay." I said, "Uh-oh, I wonder what's it going to be now." So I walked down and I said, "What's the matter, Dad?" "Well," he says, "I'll tell you." He says, "I was--about that incident today." He says, "I was thinking about it and I'll go ahead and do what you guys say." I said, "Thanks, Dad, but you were going to do it whether you want to or not." [laughs] That didn't set right with him.

WILMOT: Well, it was kind of like you were definitely--what's the word? Grinding your--grinding the--you definitely were doing a little extra there.

GOMES: Well, I was--I had my heel down and I was grinding stone, you know.

WILMOT: Yeah, you were putting a little salt in the wound. Yeah.

GOMES: Yeah, salt in the wound.

WILMOT: Because he had already made the concession.

GOMES: Yeah. But the thing was that he finally--finally--he finally--he finally said, "That was a good change you guys made." He finally admitted it.

WILMOT: Uh-huh.

GOMES: Yeah, it made his job easier. I forget what the heck it was but it made his job easier.

WILMOT: Okay, let's take a break. Let's take a break. Time to stretch, huh?

[interview interruption while recording media are exchanged]

[Begin Audio File __ gomes_joe3 06-02-06.wav]

WILMOT: I wanted to ask you a question. You said you had a crew mostly of women in the shipyards. Where were they from?

GOMES: From all parts of the United States.

WILMOT: Were they of different racial backgrounds? Were there black, white--?

GOMES: Well, they were all white.

WILMOT: They were all white.

GOMES: With the exception of one lady who was Russian. And her son was in the 01:57:00service. And she always talked about her son and the letters that she received from him. I forgot what theater he was in, to be honest with you. But--. Finally she received notification that he had been killed. And that devastated her, of course. You know, but she was there working all the time, yeah.

WILMOT: What part of the country--where were they from? Were they from the south? Were they from like Louisiana or--?

GOMES: I don't recall. All I know is the Russian extraction but I don't recall 01:58:00from what part.

WILMOT: I'm speaking mostly of everyone else. Were they from like, Oklahoma or--.

GOMES: Oh. They were from--they were from all areas. Most of them from Midwest and the south, most of them. And of course, a lot of the black population came out here, of course. And, you know, for better wages and better living conditions even at that point in time with all the rationing that was going on. And, of course, there was a tremendous amount of war housing that went up in the City of Richmond during that time and also here in San Pablo. What we call the El Portal area was all war housing. That was all farmland. We farmed sugar beets 01:59:00and when the war effort came it turned into all housing and the only remnants of the housing that exist today is in that El Portal shopping area that eventually became San Pablo Housing Authority. And it remained the San Pablo Housing Authority for a good number of years. And as a matter of fact, I served on the San Pablo Housing Authority--I forget how many years. But it was off of San Pablo Housing Authority that I then was appointed to the City Council to fill in 02:00:00an unexpired term of a council member that passed away. But most of the effort, of course, of people coming in here was to deal with the war effort.

WILMOT: So in El Portal housing, who lived there?

GOMES: Where?

GOMES: The El Portal housing?

WILMOT: Yeah. Who lived there?

GOMES: That was all people that worked here in the war effort.

WILMOT: Oh, were they from--where were they from?

GOMES: They were from all over the nation.

WILMOT: Was it segregated housing or was it segregated or was it integrated housing?

GOMES: Best I can remember it was integrated.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Was it mostly black or partially black?

GOMES: No, no. It--it--I think most of it... I think the majority of the--these units... I can't speak for what was in Richmond but I think I can speak with some authority but not accurate that it was mostly Caucasian in the El Portal situation.

WILMOT: All right.

WILMOT: So had you ever supervised a group of women before?

GOMES: I eventually did. [laughs] But my first experience with the women was at shipyard number two.

WILMOT: What was like that for you? What--did you--was there a learning curve? Did you have to learn how to supervise women? Was it different than supervising men?

GOMES: No, I--you know, I treated them just like any other worker, you know, because they had a job to do and I guess the fortunate part of it was that they realized that that's what it was, you know. And I didn't have any trouble.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: I didn't have any trouble whatsoever. I had more trouble with some of the men than I did with the women. As a matter of fact, when I came back to American Standard, my crew was all women.

WILMOT: Wow.

GOMES: Well, I had a few men that did the heavy, you know, the heavy part of the 02:02:00operation but I would say that 90% of my crew at American Standard during the war effort was women.

WILMOT: Do you need your eyeglasses on?

GOMES: I can take them off if you want me to do.

WILMOT: Thank you. They're getting such a glare. Thank you so much.

GOMES: No, I can see without them.

WILMOT: Good.

GOMES: No, like I was saying, you know, the majority of my crew, 90% was women. And they knew what they had to do. And they knew what I had to do. And there was very few times that there was any discussion, of saying, "Well, you're wrong and I'm right." You know, like my dad at that time. [chuckles]

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: But they did a good job. There was no two ways about it. They did a good 02:03:00job. And even after the war when American Standard built a fixtures plant manufacturing faucets and all this other bit. And I assumed a supervisory force crew there in what they called the cleaning department where we did all the preliminary work before machining of the parts. 90% of my crew were women and they could do a better job then some of the men did. Their dexterity was a lot better than the men. They weren't as clumsy as the men were, let me put it that way.

WILMOT: Um-hmm. Who was your boss at American Standard when you went back after the war?

GOMES: A gentleman by the name of James Parker. And, of course, he's deceased 02:04:00quite a number of years ago. Although I'm still in contact with his daughter and granddaughter because, you know, she's up there. She's ten years younger than I am. She reminds me of that all the time, too. But he was my immediate supervisor. And, of course, we had the manager of the plant who I had a good relationship with, you know, and that was fortunate. He was a good man and easy to work with, you know.

But those 35 years that I spent at American Standard weren't all easy years because some of it was hard work and, of course, the years that I spent on the 02:05:00supervisory force weren't always the easiest, you know, because there was a lot of stress and you had schedules that you to meet and production that you had to--to attain. And production standard that you had to attain. And the thing that made it a lot easier was the fact that it was piecework. So if they didn't work, they didn't get paid. So that was one aspect of the job that made it a lot easier.

WILMOT: If they didn't work--if the things you were making didn't work they didn't get paid or--piecework, oh.

GOMES: Piecework.

WILMOT: Not P-E-A-C-E but P-I-E-C-E. Piece.

GOMES: P-I-E-C-E.

WILMOT: Got you. Got you.

GOMES: Yeah, that's right. Well, I'll just put it another way. Contract work.

WILMOT: Got you.

GOMES: Yeah. And there was money--there was good money to be made if they, you know, if they put their nose to the grindstone.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: You see? And that's what made the operation a lot easier to work with, 02:06:00was the fact that if you didn't do it, you didn't make it, that's all.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: When you went back after the war there was more women working at American Standard?

GOMES: Absolutely.

WILMOT: Were there any other big changes after the war?

GOMES: Oh, yeah. After the war and before they built the fixtures plant--faucets and valves and what have you--in the cast iron production where they made the bathtubs and the wash sinks, that was all men.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: That was all--the only women that we had was women in the office force.

WILMOT: Um-hmm, um-hmm. After the war?

GOMES: After the war.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: Yeah. But during the war, the major portion was women, of course.

WILMOT: At American Standard?

GOMES: At American Standard.

WILMOT: Yeah.

WILMOT: Doing the bombs?

GOMES: While we were doing war work.

WILMOT: Making the bombs.

GOMES: Making the bombs and the hand grenades, yeah.

WILMOT: I was wondering if you could show me this--this is a bomb, right?

GOMES: Um-hmm.

WILMOT: Could you just show me again? You had held it up. What's the green part?

GOMES: [holding the bomb in his arms, pointing and showing] The green part is what they call the tail piece that stabilized--that stabilized the bomb after it was released from the airplane. As it went down. And then when it [clapping sound]--when this struck the building or the ground it set off the firing pin. And it would just--the firing pin would set off the fumes that was in there that 02:08:00lit up the power that was in this body here. Because it's hollow in the center, you see. And it got so hot that it then melted this magnesium and magnesium just spread around. And it got on you, you had a hard time to get it off.

WILMOT: Wow. Did you ever get any on you from working with it?

GOMES: I got a little bit--I got burned a couple times. Just minor. It was a splash, you know, drops of it that--if you got it near water, that was it.

WILMOT: It was a liquid?

GOMES: It was a molten liquid.

WILMOT: It was hot.

GOMES: And when you cast this--oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

WILMOT: So that inside that metal was liquid?

GOMES: No.

WILMOT: That's magnesium.

GOMES: This was liquid that went in the mold.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: Now--and the mold, when this went into the mold it formed this pattern.

WILMOT: Right. And that's magnesium that you're holding?

GOMES: This is magnesium. This is cast iron.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: That's heavy.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: This was not on there.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: This is what left American Standard when it went to the plants that armed it.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: [pointing and showing] That put in the powder and that put in the firing pin and the tailpiece.

WILMOT: So you didn't--you didn't arm it? You just made the molding?

GOMES: Yeah, this is the only part we made.

WILMOT: How did you get that thing?

GOMES: How did I get it?

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: After the war was over with and we were converting back into--into--

WILMOT: Peace time.

GOMES: --domestic, there was numerous samples around, you know. And I got permission to be able to get this one.

WILMOT: Is that loaded?

GOMES: No! Never been loaded.

WILMOT: Cool. [laughs]

GOMES: No, it was there to show all those that were involved in it, what the final product was and what--we had to go through. Because these things had to be machined. These--these pins, these holes were done here, you see. And there were finishing touches that had to go onto this--to this bump because if there was fins or anything on there you had to grind them off.

WILMOT: Yeah, yeah. So it came back to you after it was completed?

GOMES: Yeah. So they had samples made, you know, of what the final product would look like. And I was fortunate. I say I was fortunate that I got one of them.

WILMOT: Yeah. It's a really neat thing!

GOMES: I don't think there's many of them around.

WILMOT: I don't think so either. I'm glad I got to see it today.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Were there ever any injuries in the workplace?

GOMES: Injuries?

WILMOT: Injuries, yeah.

GOMES: Oh, yes, yes. That's how I got hurt.

WILMOT: Right.

GOMES: And in the machining line there would be, you know, not major, not major injuries, you know. But there were burns. And, of course, where we cast--where we cast the nosepiece in the foundry and when they cast--when they poured the molten metal, you know, sometimes there was splashes and what have you. But, you know, nothing really serious.

WILMOT: And at American Standard was that workforce mostly white or what--who works there?

GOMES: Yeah. Most--mostly white in the mach--in the cleaning department I didn't have anyone of color. And then the machining lines was mostly done by women, you know.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: The best of my recollection probably 99% were of--of Caucasian, you know.

WILMOT: Was it a union shop?

GOMES: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

WILMOT: Were you in the union?

GOMES: No, I couldn't belong to the union because--

WILMOT: You were management.

GOMES: --I was supervisory force. Yeah.

WILMOT: Right, right. Interesting. So what union was there?

GOMES: Well, there was the molder's union and then there was the machinist's union. And then there was a teamster's union up on the shipping end of it. Yeah.

WILMOT: Um-hmm, um-hmm. [pause] One of the things that people talk about during the war is the wave--when there was now a black population coming from the south into the Bay Area. That there was like lots of--in the shipyards, especially, they say that there was some discrimination in terms of who could work what type 02:13:00of jobs. They also say that it was an opportunity that people didn't get to have. But what was your experience there?

GOMES: Well, I--well--

WILMOT: What did you see?

GOMES: Like I say, my experience there at shipyard number two, I didn't experience any of that. Because the crew that I was on and the crews in other bays were mostly Caucasian.

And I know that there was--of the black race, there was a lot of them on the ship, on the way, you know, wherever they were putting the ship together. Where I--we were just getting the component parts, you know, ready for final assembly.

And when I came back to American Standard the blacks that we had, of course, were down in the foundry operation. And like I just stated a few moments ago it was mostly Caucasian in the other departments.

WILMOT: Um-hmm, um-hmm. [pause] During the war, did your wife stay at home? Did she work?

GOMES: Yes. My wife never worked.

WILMOT: Why is that? Did you not want her to work? Or did she want to work or no?

GOMES: Well, I think it was a combination of both. You know, we both agreed that somebody had to be home with the kids.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: And, of course, at that time I--and even prior to the war coming along, a wife working was very--very rare. Of course, that all changed when the shipyards came in. You got the example of Rosie the Welder, where there was a lot of women 02:15:00that worked there; welders, and shipwrights and the whole bit. And of course, that changed the situation. And it has continued ever since. Because now, you know, with the economy the way it is and the material needs, almost require two people working in the family. And sometimes you--I think that that--that's not the healthiest thing. And that's probably what has changed the whole situation as far as the young people not getting the tutelage that they should be getting. 02:16:00Because they come home and no parents are home because they're both working and what have you. And probably the tendency is to get in trouble.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: I can recall when I first got in a problem in school. And it was the San Pablo grammar school in the third grade. And we had strict disciplinarians. Teachers were strict disciplinarians. And I got out of line by talking too much and the third grade teacher--and I'll never forget her name. Her name was Miss Crowley. And she was one of these teachers that wasn't afraid to use the strap. She strapped my hands. I came home naïve as--came home, we were still living on 02:17:00Rumrill. And I said--my hands were red and sore and I told my mom, "Look what the teacher did to me, Mom." And she said, "What'd you do?" I said, "Nothing." The teacher said you had--my mother said, "You had to do something." Says, "Well, let's go in the bathroom to see what we got to put on those hands." Well, my dad used to shave with a straight razor at that time. That was what people did then. They didn't have safety razors then. Had, you know, the old--you probably have never seen a straight razor. Anyhow, they had a straight razor and they had the strap that would sharpen it, you see. And the strap was about that long. And my dad hung it up there on the door. My mother took me in and pulled the door and got that strap off the hook. And that's what I got on my rear, was 02:18:00a strapping. Because my mom said--[phone ringing]--"Your teacher didn't reprimand you for nothing. You had to have done something. You don't want to tell me?" So I got a few whacks in the seat of my pants. And that taught me to be truthful and to admit, you know, to things. And not only that, but it taught me at school that you minded the teacher. And that's something that doesn't happen today.

WILMOT: What was your mom like as a person? What was her personality?

GOMES: How's that?

WILMOT: What was your mom's personality like?

GOMES: My mom?

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: [sigh] She was--she was strict. If you did something wrong you were going 02:19:00to be reprimanded. She was very frugal. You save every penny that you can because you never know when you're going to need it. And that has rubbed off. That has rubbed off somewhat. Now, my dad was different. My dad was liberal. And my mother gave us an allowance. It would be 25 cents. And 25 cents in those days was pretty good. But sometimes we would run short for some reason or another. When we tried to get another 25 cents from my mother, that was a lost cause. So we'd go hit--my brother and I would hit my dad. My dad [laughs] would be, "Oh, yeah!" My mother found out and that didn't please her one bit, you know. That 02:20:00didn't please her one bit. [chuckling] So, yeah. But they were good parents, oh, yeah. They were good parents. They taught us what's right and what's wrong. And be truthful. My dad used to say, "If you tell one lie, you're going to have to tell more and you're always looking over your shoulder to see who's coming after you, to say you lied to him." So if you're truthful you never have to look backwards. And there's a lot of truth to that.

WILMOT: Yeah.

GOMES: Lot of truth to that.

WILMOT: Yeah. You told the story of how you and your wife and mom used to go shopping at the housewives market?

GOMES: No. HC Capwell.

WILMOT: Capwell, but you went to the Housewives Market, too?

GOMES: That was my wife and I. Not--the mother wasn't involved in this.

WILMOT: Well, where did you all used to go shopping to buy food and things like that during the war? Where did you go?

GOMES: Well, you know, at that time during the war there wasn't supermarkets around here. There wasn't Safeway or an Albertson's. I mean, all little mom and pop deals, okay? And of course, you know, their supplies were limited and Oakland was the big place, you know. Well, Richmond had some grocery stores right on McDonald Avenue. And I can remember one--but they didn't have, you know, the assortments that they--that you could get in the Housewives Market in Oakland or Swan's Market in Oakland, also--they were just close by. But that's 02:22:00when we would go down to Oakland to do some shopping for other stuff, you know, whatever. Mostly for what we had here in the house--you used in the house.

WILMOT: How'd you get there?

GOMES: I drove.

WILMOT: You had a car? You just didn't --

GOMES: Yeah, I had a car then.

WILMOT: You didn't take the key train or anything?

GOMES: No.

WILMOT: Did it come up here?

GOMES: What, what?

WILMOT: The key train?

GOMES: No, not--we had--well, let me get back. We had the streetcars that came from Oakland to Richmond and even out to Point Richmond and... Yeah, I guess they were known as the key system, if I'm not mistaken. But there was... As a matter of fact, we had one line that came down 23rd Street that ended at Market in San Pablo, where Rockefeller Lodge is at right now. That was a lodge that 02:23:00John D. Rockefeller that was used as a place where the people from San Francisco when they had the earthquake--that was his hunting lodge. And he opened it up for the refugees of the earthquake to come out here and live in his hunting lodge. And they pitched up tents and what have you while San Francisco was getting back on its feet after the 1906 quake. And we did have the streetcars. Well, in those days going down to Oakland you didn't have the freeway. You had to go down to the San Pablo Avenue, you know. And that was almost an all day jaunt. [laughs]

WILMOT: [pause] I'm listening to you. So that's how you got to--when you wanted 02:24:00to buy like ties or socks or men's things, where'd you go?

GOMES: Oh. We'd go to Richmond.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: Richmond. We'd go to Richmond or HC Capwell in Oakland. Because Richmond had several clothing stores

WILMOT: Did you go to church?

GOMES: Oh, yes. The Catholic Church. I had first communion, confirmation.

WILMOT: You're Catholic, um-hmm.

GOMES: In the old Saint Paul's Church. And I got married in the new Saint Paul's Church.

WILMOT: Do you remember the Port Chicago explosion?

GOMES: Oh, yes. I can recall--I can recall that. I had just gone to bed when all 02:25:00of a sudden I saw this bright flash [clapping sound]. And I said, "I wonder what happened." And then, of course, the sound wave came in after. Yeah, it was something that, you know, we'd never--I'd never experienced in other words. I can remember, I can remember when--oh. San Pablo when I moved here in 1925. We had an airport in San Pablo. Over there in the area of El Portal in 1927. And we have a picture album that shows one of the airplanes being gassed at a service station that was on the corner of Broadway and San Pablo Avenue. We also had a 02:26:00bullfight arena in San Pablo. And here's a picture of it.

WILMOT: Wow. Who used to go to the bullfight?

GOMES: Well, mostly Portuguese people.

WILMOT: Manuel Agosto [reads]

GOMES: But it was bloodless. It was--.

WILMOT: So the bull--so you never killed a bull?

GOMES: Unh-huh. Unh-huh. All they did was the cape work.

WILMOT: And this is the [Imagen do pasado]? How do you say it?

GOMES: Yeah. Imagine--images of the past.

WILMOT: But how do you say it in Portuguese?

GOMES: [Imagen do pasado]?

WILMOT: That's beautiful. Can you show this to the camera at this point in the tape? And that's the bullfight, huh?

GOMES: Uh-huh.

WILMOT: And it was owned by Manual [Agosto?].

GOMES: It was on Brookside Drive between the SP Railroad tracks and the Santa Fe 02:27:00Railroad tracks.

WILMOT: You remember going?

GOMES: Oh, yes. Because while they were building the arena--it was two Portuguese people, one that lived in Berkeley--I don't know where the other one but one lived in Berkeley. And they hired us--several of us young guys to pound nails on these seats that you see here. You see? For free admission, you know.

WILMOT: Wow.

GOMES: And it was inaugurated on Easter Sunday in 1928. And it, you know, [chuckles] sometimes it amazes me how I can remember some of this stuff. And 02:28:00then the airport that we had, they had an air meet on a weekend and they had those little racing planes. And they had the course laid out where it's now all populated with El Portal housing and [Belleva?] housing. Rolling Wood. And that was all empty land, farmland. And there was a dairy at the eastern end of that area where we had the off ramp via 80 into San Pablo El Portal Drive. They had a dairy there. They call it--the owner of it was Brito. But anyhow, the course was laid out. The first pylon was right at the base of the hill and what we used to 02:29:00call Tag Farm Hill. And the eastern pylon was up at the off ramp. And then the other pylon was at Road 20 in San Pablo Avenue. And that was the course that those racing planes used during that particular event.

WILMOT: Uh-huh. Did you ever go swimming in the ocean? In the bay?

GOMES: How's that?

WILMOT: Did you ever go swimming in the bay as a young person?

GOMES: No.

WILMOT: [pause] And did you send your children to school in San Pablo? Did they go to public schools?

GOMES: Oh, yes, I went to public school.

WILMOT: Your son or your daughter?

GOMES: My--yes, yes.

WILMOT: They went to public schools here?

GOMES: Yes. They all went to public school. And so did my great-grandchildren, 02:30:00and grandchildren. The one that's the doctor now went to Pinole High. That's where he did his high school work. And his mother went to Pinole also. I went to San Pablo grammar school and so did my wife, Mary. Wound up at Richmond High. The only high school at that time, back in 1936. Only one high school in this west county area.

WILMOT: Um-hmm, um-hmm. Can you tell me a little bit about how marriage changed your life? I know you were married most of your life, but...

GOMES: Yes. We were married--let's see. We were married 62 years. It would have been 63 in July the 12th and she expired on April the 15th of that--of '98, you 02:31:00know. And I couldn't ask for a better--I couldn't ask for a better partner. She was a good mother, she was a good wife, and what more can I say. And no one can replace her. No one.

WILMOT: Um-hmm. Um-hmm.

GOMES: Of course, I'm not looking for anybody, either. [laughs]

WILMOT: Okay. Well, I think that we're mostly done for today. I was going to ask you if you could show me your rose garden.

GOMES: Oh, sure.

WILMOT: And I could follow you with the camera. So how's that sound? Is there anything else that you want to talk about today?

GOMES: No. Boy, we've talked about a lot.

WILMOT: We have. We have. I'm trying to think if there's any other things that it's important but I think we have spoken about a lot and I will just follow you with the camera.

GOMES: We haven't touched too much on my political life.

WILMOT: You mean as--working with the city?

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Um-hmm.

GOMES: And like I stated earlier, I was appointed to the city council to fill in an unexpired term.

WILMOT: Who appointed you? Who appointed you?

GOMES: City council at that time. See, because they had a city wide election in April of '76 for a four year term. And the council member that expired, he expired in November of that year. Rather than go to another election they then decided for the appointment process--or the recruitment process. And I was in on the housing authority at that--I had already served four, five or six years on the planning commission. And I was on the housing authority at that time. They 02:33:00took me from the planning commission and put me on the housing authority because that was the premiere appointment at that time. And usually when they had to make a replacement or recruit someone to run for city council they would choose it from the housing authority. That's no longer the process. That's no longer the process. [chuckles] But anyway, they called me and asked me--and asked if I would want to serve on--and I said, "I don't have any interest in serving on the city council." And he said, "Oh, we just want some names." I said, "Okay, if you want a name, go ahead." I said, "By the way, who's in contention now?" And they told me who was in contention and I says, "Well," I says, "Go ahead and use my name. I don't have a chance with people you're considering.

WILMOT: Who were they?

GOMES: A whole--a bunch of well known people in town, you know.

WILMOT: Like who?

GOMES: Well, it was businessmen and cronies of some of the...

WILMOT: Do you remember their names?

GOMES: No, not--not... I don't want to reveal their names.

WILMOT: Okay. [laughs]

GOMES: I don't want to reveal the names. You know.

WILMOT: Okay.

GOMES: But anyhow, there was 20 of them being considered. I said, "Go ahead and use my name. That's okay." I wound up with the appointment. And that was that. I was officially installed in January of '77 and I've been there ever since.

WILMOT: Well, let me ask you something. So did you have--how did you become interested in working in the civic arena? How did that become--?

GOMES: Oh, I'll tell you. This very same person that I replaced was a foreman at 02:35:00American Standard in another department. And at that time I was in charge of all the supplies and spare parts that we would have for the operation of the plant. I was in the storage. And he--he--he normally came up to the coffee machine to get a cup of coffee in the morning and then he would stop and he started asking me about, "Well, what do you think about this?" And "What do you think about that?" You know, that was occurring here in town. And I would speak my mind. And he says, "Well," he says, "I think one of these days we're going to appoint you to the planning commission." I said, "Don't bother because I don't think I want to get involved in politics." Well, the next thing I know, there was an opening on the planning commission and he informed me that I was on the planning 02:36:00commission. That's how it all got started and it's been there ever since.

WILMOT: Do you enjoy the work?

GOMES: It's fulfilling. Yes, I do. Because the city is going through major changes. I think you're well aware of the controversy that's now with the card club and the casino and the whole bit. And--.

WILMOT: Is that a native--what kind of casino is it?

GOMES: Well, it--when it started back in 1994 it was strictly a card club. You know, where you played Texas Hold 'em and all this stuff. And [paigow?] and what have you. And then it became the process of Indian casino.

WILMOT: Which tribe owns it? Do you know?

GOMES: The Layton tribe of the Pomo Indian and their home reservation was in the Alexander Valley out of Geyserville. And they're--most of their residents live over in the San Rosa area, something like that. But I was opposed to even bringing a card club in at that time back in 1947 because of the fact that San Pablo back in the '40's, late '40's and early '50's had what they called at that time 47 card rooms and 47 bars, you see. And we had a problem with that, to get rid of 'em because there was outside interests that had brought in the card club, you know, illegally. But we--back in 1994 we were in grave financial 02:38:00straits in the City of San Pablo. We had borrowed money from the redevelopment agency, about four million dollars from the redevelopment agency to fund the general fund which then operated the police department and paid the employees and provided the service to the city. And the city manager at that time came with the thought of a card club. And I was opposed to it until I got all the facts and the fact that we were financially in financial straits, that in a few years we would be bankrupt. And I said the only way that I'll approve it is if the voters of this town approve it on the election process. And that's what we done. And and then it became an Indian casino when George Miller put in a rider 02:39:00on the Indian Omnibus bill that President Clinton signed as one of his last official duties. Okay?

WILMOT: So now it's the Pomo Indians and you said the tribe is the latent?

GOMES: The Layton--the Layton tribe of the Pomo...

WILMOT: How do you spell Latent?

GOMES: L-A-Y-T-O-N

WILMOT: Layton. Okay, thank you. I didn't know very much about that.

GOMES: Yeah.

WILMOT: Okay. What do you think in general of the directions that San Pablo has taken from the time that you've lived here? Was that too big a question?

GOMES: No, no. It's not.

WILMOT: You sighed heavily.

GOMES: You know, I'm really pleased with the direction that the City of San Pablo has taken because of the fact that since the advent of the card club for 02:40:00one, but even prior to that, the redevelopment process in the City of San Pablo has been a positive for the community. The card club, which was the only resource that we had at our disposal to acquire the finances that would provide the services that our people in the City of San Pablo require, has been another positive. And now that that the Indian tribe is in and the revenue that the so-called bingo machines that they have there, has been a financial boon to the City of San Pablo at this point in time. But, of course, there's legislation out 02:41:00and federal legislation that Diane Feinstein is proposing that would then strip the Indians of their situation here, which would financially devastate the city. But if it reverted back to the card club we would still be receiving financial funds although not at--at the amount that we have now. But it would still sustain the city.

WILMOT: Is there anything else you want to say today?

GOMES: No, that's it.

WILMOT: Okay, let's go.[laughs]

[End of Interview]