Georgie Kunkel | Interview 1 | December 28, 2015

DUNHAM: So this is David Dunham with Georgie Kunkel in her lovely home in Seattle, Washington on December 28, 2015, for the Rosie the Riveter/World War II Home Front Oral History Project. We usually start at the beginning, so what is your full name and date of birth?

KUNKEL: Well, I'm Georgie--and then I have a lot of other names but I don't use them all. But I was born to Myrtia George Ardelle Bright. And my father was named George, and nobody else in the family was named George, so I became Georgie. But they didn't have a birth certificate for me, so I got to go down to the county office and tell them what my name was. And I just told them what I wanted my name to be, so that was great.

DUNHAM: When did you do that?

KUNKEL: Well, that was when I--I had to have a birth certificate to go to college, and I didn't have one because I was born at home. So I got to do what I 00:01:00wanted. I got to go to court and get my own name the way I wanted it.

DUNHAM: So what was it before? What had you gone by? [microphone adjustment sounds]

KUNKEL: Well, I was called Georgie, but my name was Myrtia George Ardelle Bright. Ardelle after my oldest brother's girlfriend.

DUNHAM: Interesting, interesting. [laughter]

KUNKEL: So I don't use that part of my name.

DUNHAM: Yeah, and where were you born?

KUNKEL: Chehalis.

DUNHAM: You were born in Chehalis.

KUNKEL: Just ninety miles south of Seattle.

DUNHAM: Yeah, we just came from there.

KUNKEL: Yeah.

DUNHAM: And so what can you tell us about your family history?

KUNKEL: Gee, how much time do you have? [laughter]

DUNHAM: Well--

KUNKEL: I am the eleventh child, and the one born between myself and my next sister died at babyhood, but she still had ten living children.

DUNHAM: Wow, and you're the youngest. And what about--did you know your grandparents?

KUNKEL: No.

DUNHAM: Okay. Do you know when your family first came to the United States?

KUNKEL: Oh, now wait a minute. I did know my grandmother in Port Angeles. Port Angeles is--Washington is a very liberal state in the west side. And Port Angeles is one of the early settlements in Washington. My grandfather was--he came from a lumbering industry in California and bought into this new colony, and it was one of the earliest colonies in Washington. It didn't last too long because everybody outside the colony was not, you know, cooperative, so it kind of folded up later.

DUNHAM: What were the tenets of the colony? What was--

KUNKEL: Well, for $30 you could buy in and you could be in the colony, and so my 00:03:00grandfather did that.

DUNHAM: Did it have a particular mission or culture?

KUNKEL: Well, just to be self-sustaining and cooperative. My father was in the lumbering industry in California. That was pretty dangerous. He was in the redwood industry. So I didn't know my--I just knew my grandmother. All my grandfathers were dead before I was born.

DUNHAM: You had mentioned on the phone that one of your grandfathers was a socialist and atheist?

KUNKEL: Yeah.

DUNHAM: And so what do you--

KUNKEL: The one in Port Angeles was a socialist/atheist. See, everybody that wanted to escape the big city or the status quo came to Washington. [laughing] That's the farthest they could go. And there's--a lot of colonies grew up in Washington.

DUNHAM: Do you know about when that Port Angeles colony came and went?

KUNKEL: Oh, not the dates, not really. I'm not sure.

DUNHAM: So is it from there that your family--

KUNKEL: It was before statehood.

DUNHAM: Okay. When did your family settle in Chehalis then?

KUNKEL: Let's see--they were out in the country first, and then my father became county superintendent of schools and moved into Chehalis with the family. And then after he died my mother, when I was three years old, ran for the same position--no, he was deputy and she ran for the county position, the actual position, and she won. So for eight years we were very fortunate to have her in that position because she had that big family to take care of. And when she had her eight years in and she couldn't run again she heard some woman talking about her. She said, "She's made her pile. She doesn't need to work anymore." With all 00:05:00these children and everything?

DUNHAM: Wow.

KUNKEL: But women working out in public had to face a lot of prejudice.

DUNHAM: And were her politics--what were her politics?

KUNKEL: Well, she was a good Republican. She was one of the good Republicans. [laughing]

DUNHAM: And so what was it like growing up in Chehalis in the twenties and thirties?

KUNKEL: Well, I was rather--I was a real gregarious child when I was--I had my babysitter. My mother worked. She had her best friend come and stay and live with us, and she did the housekeeping and took care of me, and she became a mother to me. After she had to leave, because I was old enough to get myself to school--no one explained to me why my second mother had to leave, and I was so 00:06:00upset that I went into my shell for years. You wouldn't have known me. I was just so happy and gregarious and then when she left I just folded up. But no one explained to me why she had to leave. And it wasn't until I met my husband that I really came out of my shell again. It's amazing how parts of your life like that I guess.

DUNHAM: How many years later was that? Or how old were you when you met your husband?

KUNKEL: Well, I was--I had taught school and I was in my--let's see, I had been teaching school a couple of--three years when I met my husband. I met him at the old Trianon Ballroom in Seattle. It's not around anymore. But a lot of women met their husbands there, and I never came back after I met him. [laughing]

DUNHAM: What was the Trianon Ballroom? Is that what you called it, Trianon?

KUNKEL: Yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay, can you describe it?

KUNKEL: Well, it was a place everybody went to meet somebody, and I met my husband and then we never went back there.

DUNHAM: So it was with live music and dancing?

KUNKEL: Yeah, yeah, live music. He went overseas about two months after we met, and I waited for him for two to three years--two full years until he came back.

DUNHAM: Okay, well backing up to your early years, I understand you went into your shell, but what was school like and what was it like growing up at that time, through the Depression especially?

KUNKEL: Well, I can't imagine myself sitting in the school seat all day because I was on constant motion. I was a hyperactive--and I was in constant motion. But when I got to school somehow or another I controlled myself to sit there, and I 00:08:00think it's a horrible thing to put little kids on their seat all day. That's terrible. But I was a good student and always got along. I was always the one who got my work done first, and they tried to double promote me, but my mother didn't approve of that. And for years I thought she didn't think I was that great, because she wouldn't let me go ahead in my school. You know, you have these funny ideas.

DUNHAM: Did she explain it to at some point, or you figured out later that it was--

KUNKEL: No, I don't remember anybody explaining.

DUNHAM: It was more of a social choice, I assume than a--

KUNKEL: Yeah, I got the wrong impression of why she didn't want me to go ahead. So anyway--but I always had to have good marks in school and I worked hard. I was about a mile from the school, but sometimes I'd come home at noon to do schoolwork, so I could do my schoolwork and special projects.

DUNHAM: Okay, and then go back to school? You had time--

KUNKEL: Yeah.

DUNHAM: Wow. And did you, when you were a young girl, did you have any idea what you wanted to be when you grew up, if you will, or--

KUNKEL: Well, my school--they didn't have counselors but they had a senior advisor and she came to my house one time and she said to my mother, "You know, she ought to get a job in Chehalis and take care of you." And my mother knew that I wanted to go to college, so she didn't stand in my way. And I don't know how I got there, but it was because the government had special programs in those days and I had a--I forget the name of the program but it was--similar to WPA. [coughing]

DUNHAM: Part of the New Deal. Do you need some water or anything? [interruption 00:10:00in recording] Let's see--did you go to church or other community groups or anything as a child?

KUNKEL: Well, my mother was an Old Time Baptist, and there was no church in my town that was Old Time Baptist, and so she used to be--when she was county superintendent she used to visit all the schools out in the county and everything, and so there was some--they decided to meet together in homes, out in the county. I was kind of stubborn. I didn't want to go into the church meetings, so I sat in the car. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Why was that?

KUNKEL: I don't know. I was stubborn. But now I'm quite a churchgoer now.

DUNHAM: Oh, what kind of church now?

KUNKEL: Unitarian. That's kind of the best church for me because it isn't rah, rah this and that. You can believe what you want to believe, and so it's really a great place for me.

DUNHAM: I know--we've talked already, when we met, about your--well, speaking of the Unitarian and free spirit--were you raised with that type of--

KUNKEL: Well, I had quite a bit of freedom. My mother was very thoughtful. She was very definite in her own beliefs, but she never forced them on anyone. And I used to argue the Bible with her. That was my teenage rebellion, because I read the Bible and it didn't make sense. It was all kinds of different stories, and 00:12:00the Old Testament didn't agree with the New Testament, and I knew all that. But I realized--gosh, when she was widowed she had a very strong faith, and that's what held her through. So I am not deeply religious, and when I was just very young I would sit in astonishment about the universe and worry about it. I couldn't figure out where it all came from, and it just blew my mind, you know!

DUNHAM: Did you have these kind of discussions and/or debates with your siblings or friends in the community?

KUNKEL: Well, mostly with my mother. Yeah.

DUNHAM: So what was high school like in Chehalis at that time?

KUNKEL: Well, I wish that I had been as gregarious as I was when I was young. I 00:13:00just went into a hole in high school. I was just a little fly on the wall, as they call it. And I tried to--I just studied all the time and tried to make good grades.

DUNHAM: What were your favorite subjects then?

KUNKEL: Science and math and all that kind of thing.

DUNHAM: Did you ever reconnect with that babysitter who you had been so close to?

KUNKEL: Well, not a lot. She was about six blocks away from our house. But when I went to college I didn't have any--kind of hardly any contact with her. I just--I don't know what happened. She just kind of faded away and that was sad.

DUNHAM: And where did you go to college?

KUNKEL: I went to Western Washington U. and finished--when I graduated you only had to have two years, or something like that, and then I came back for my 00:14:00master's. I got my master's at the U.

DUNHAM: In education?

KUNKEL: Yeah.

DUNHAM: And then you returned to Chehalis to teach?

KUNKEL: Well, I was up here in Seattle when I got my master's. I was married and I was up here.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. So when did you teach in Chehalis and work at the--

KUNKEL: I taught in Chehalis until I--let's see.

DUNHAM: In between getting your earlier degree and master's?

KUNKEL: I taught in Chehalis while my husband was overseas and all of that, and then when he came back we moved to Seattle.

DUNHAM: Where were you--when did you first hear about Pearl Harbor? Where were you at that time?

KUNKEL: Oh, I can remember that. I was up in Bellingham going to school, and everybody was out on the streets and the kids were--they were running around 00:15:00with the newspaper and the headlines. I can remember that clearly.

DUNHAM: And did you know many Japanese Americans at the time?

KUNKEL: No, I really didn't. In Chehalis there was only one person that wasn't white, and they worked at the train depot. I didn't get around very much in Chehalis, so I didn't see him very often.

DUNHAM: What ethnicity was that person, if you recall?

KUNKEL: Oh gosh, what was it? I think black, yeah. And then in college I helped the music department head, so I got to go to all the concerts. He was the head of the Civic Music Association, and so I helped him get ready for that and I got to go to all the concerts, which was really wonderful. Marian Anderson came to sing. I'll never forget that.

DUNHAM: Were you musical yourself?

KUNKEL: Yes. I took piano lessons. My sister was a nurse, and she happened to nurse the mother of a great piano teacher in Chehalis, and she couldn't pay her a lot, so she gave me music lessons all through high school and piano lessons.

DUNHAM: Wonderful. So after--so when did you graduate from your--from Bellingham I guess you were?

KUNKEL: Forty-one, 1941.

DUNHAM: And then you returned to Chehalis to teach?

KUNKEL: Then I returned for my master's.

DUNHAM: Okay, straight away or you taught in--

KUNKEL: Oh God, I can't remember.

DUNHAM: Because you say--oh, you taught during the war years, right, in Chehalis?

KUNKEL: Yeah.

DUNHAM: Because I want to get at to that you were teaching--

KUNKEL: There was no--you know, I couldn't travel. I couldn't do anything in the summers, and so I worked at war industry in the summer.

DUNHAM: Yeah, so was that after your first year of teaching that you--

KUNKEL: Yeah.

DUNHAM: So tell me--well, first I'd like to hear what was it like teaching that first year? Do you recall?

KUNKEL: Well, I really shouldn't have been trapped in the classroom. [laughter] It was hard on me. I'm sure it was hard on the children! But I managed and then when I got my master's I got to be a counselor, and then I could go take the children in and talk with them and work with their parents, which was great. So that's how that worked out.

DUNHAM: I see. So that first summer how did you come to work at the Boeing plant?

KUNKEL: Well, a lot of my friends were working there and you couldn't travel, couldn't do anything else, and we wanted to make a little extra money, so we went to the Boeing plant. And this one plant that I worked in, it was in a building in downtown Chehalis and they made wing panels for the B-17 bomber. That's all they made. And there was two of us to a panel. And I was with this 00:18:00guy, and of course he was an older guy because all the young men were in the service. Well, pretty soon the boss came along and he said, "Somebody has been drilling crooked holes." They didn't have a guide; you just had to eyeball it. He came to me and had me drill and mine were perfect. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Does that mean it was your partner?

KUNKEL: Yes.

DUNHAM: And what happened from there?

KUNKEL: Well, darn--here I did all these perfect holes and they had to throw away the panels because his were crazy.

DUNHAM: Did he continue working there?

KUNKEL: Well, I did one swing shift during that summer. The loudspeaker came on, it said, "The war is over. You can all go home." We threw down our tools and never came back.

DUNHAM: But you worked there a few summers though, right?

KUNKEL: I worked every summer wrapped around through the war years. Yeah. I worked for the Federal Housing Administration, I worked for Boeing, I worked for Boeing downtown, down in my town of Chehalis.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay, so one summer at each place?

KUNKEL: Yeah, one summer.

DUNHAM: The first summer was in Chehalis?

KUNKEL: Yes.

DUNHAM: And so that plant, was it all local employees or had people come from other parts of the country to work there? Do you recall?

KUNKEL: That was mostly local people.

DUNHAM: It was a pretty small plant.

KUNKEL: Yeah, they had little plants that sprung up everywhere. Every empty building was full of something.

DUNHAM: Do you remember your initial training or what it was--

KUNKEL: We didn't get trained. We just got on the job and they showed us what to do and we did it.

DUNHAM: Do you have any idea what you made?

KUNKEL: God, I can't remember exactly. It was probably around $ 0.50 an hour or something like that.

DUNHAM: So the first summer was at Boeing. Anything else remarkable about that first summer there at Boeing? Was there a feeling of patriotism, or just a good job?

KUNKEL: Oh, I didn't feel any patriotism. I just wanted to get a job. [laughing] No, that's not really true I guess.

DUNHAM: Well, it's fine if it--were you following the war? Had you been aware of it before Pearl Harbor?

KUNKEL: Oh yeah.

DUNHAM: What was your perspective at the time?

KUNKEL: Yeah, well I just felt--I just talked to myself--well, the men have got us into it again. [laughter] We women had to go along with it. Isn't that true? It's mostly men that do the fighting and then we have to mop up.

DUNHAM: Yeah. Did you have any siblings or relatives that were in the war?

KUNKEL: You know, fortunately, my oldest brother had suited up--the war was over when he got into his suit. And my youngest brother joined and he ended up in mountain rescue in the Midwest somewhere, so that was the only ones that were involved of all my brothers and sisters.

DUNHAM: Interesting, yeah, yeah. Wow, so did you teach a second year in Chehalis? Or is that when you went up to grad school after that first summer 00:21:00maybe, at Boeing?

KUNKEL: Let's see--I taught five years in Centralia, which is a little school near me.

DUNHAM: Right, right. We've been there too.

KUNKEL: And then I got married and I had children.

DUNHAM: Okay, well the second summer that you did wartime work, where was that? Did one summer at Boeing-Chehalis--did you say the war housing authority you worked for?

KUNKEL: Yeah, Federal Housing Administration--I worked for that one summer.

DUNHAM: Okay, where was that and what did you do for them?

KUNKEL: In Seattle.

DUNHAM: Okay. So do you remember how you got that gig?

KUNKEL: Well, I had a brother who lived in Seattle and I would come up and stay with him sometimes, and so I stayed with him when I worked in Seattle.

DUNHAM: And what was that job for the Federal Housing--

KUNKEL: Just typing, and it was cost plus, and I guess--I think I was one of those people that they gave me a whole bunch of stuff to copy and type and then 00:22:00I think they threw it away afterwards.

DUNHAM: Oh!

KUNKEL: Oh well, you know. [laughter]

DUNHAM: Well, I was curious if you had any--since there was a lot of migration from the South and elsewhere up into the Northwest for jobs--

KUNKEL: Yeah, there was a lot of women.

DUNHAM: So housing was a big issue, right? Building temporary housing, finding housing for people?

KUNKEL: Oh yes.

DUNHAM: And also an issue of a lot of African Americans coming too. So I just wondered if you saw anything about that during that time or had a consciousness yet.

KUNKEL: Well, in Chehalis there weren't any blacks, as I say, except this one fellow at the train station, so I didn't know anything about blacks at all.

DUNHAM: Okay, so at that time it was not--

KUNKEL: Until I met Marian Anderson, and she was the old-guard black. There were no people coming forward about black issues in her day. Her idea was to be the best person she could be and let that stand for itself, and she was a marvelous woman.

DUNHAM: So the Federal Housing Authority was just a typing gig. And the third summer you did--

KUNKEL: Oh gosh.

DUNHAM: Did you say you worked for Boeing up here in Seattle?

KUNKEL: Yeah, I worked for the Federal Housing Administration, I worked for Boeing, and I worked for Boeing in Chehalis, you know, so I was back and--

DUNHAM: But Boeing up here you did later?

KUNKEL: Yeah, I worked in the office.

DUNHAM: Okay, so that was more office work, not working on the planes itself. So what kind of office work, do you recall?

KUNKEL: And I worked for a guy named Major Kingsley. I remember that. He had an office of sending the paperwork to send things to Alaska, and so--and he was really nice. I don't know if I really needed to be there but--[laughing]

DUNHAM: So you're saying you didn't feel particularly useful at these jobs, if you're making a--

KUNKEL: Well, you know, it was a cost-plus deal, you know.

DUNHAM: Well, explain what you mean by cost plus. [microphone adjustment sounds]

KUNKEL: Well, the companies got what it cost and then plus a certain amount for their war work.

DUNHAM: Okay, so you think they were just--

KUNKEL: I know they must have padded it a little bit, you know.

DUNHAM: The more bodies, the more they made, essentially.

KUNKEL: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Interesting, yeah. Okay. Did you--how was war affecting communities where you were, Chehalis or elsewhere. What did you see?

KUNKEL: Well, I remember in Seattle, when I finally went to Seattle. [coughing] Sorry.

DUNHAM: No problem, you have the water if you need it. Take your time.

KUNKEL: I don't know what's going on here.

DUNHAM: So talking about though, the war years--like rationing and victory gardens. Do you recall those types of things?

KUNKEL: Oh yes. We had--my good friend that I had at that time, she was on the ration board. We all had little stamps and we could only use so much, you know, and only get certain things, and oh my, you know. But my family was so frugal anyway that it didn't seem to bother them any.

DUNHAM: Okay, so they--

KUNKEL: Butter was rationed, a lot of things were rationed. I lost track of her over the years and I had tried to get in--she's probably dead now. She was older than I am.

DUNHAM: Well, it sounds like your family didn't have any particular need for it, 00:26:00but were there any special privileges from having known her?

KUNKEL: No.

DUNHAM: Well, I'm curious. I know you met your husband early on in the war years, but what was dating like, during that time, for folks?

KUNKEL: Oh, as I said, the Trianon Ballroom was the meeting place for everybody. And I went there and my first dance was with a guy who smoked and drank--and he smelled. [laughter] And I just gave up. I went over and sat in the corner. I didn't want to dance anymore. And my husband, my future husband, walked over and asked me to dance. And when our eyes met--boy, there was electricity! It was really weird. And that was the beginning.

DUNHAM: Was it during college that you began to form--I mean obviously--

KUNKEL: No, I was teaching.

DUNHAM: Okay, yeah, but well, I'm wondering--

KUNKEL: I didn't date in college. I think I had one date all the time I went to college. [coughing]

DUNHAM: Are you okay? Take your time. We can take a break, if you like too, just let me know.

KUNKEL: I had a little--a friend down the street from me in Chehalis that I played with all through my childhood. And I remember when he came back from being overseas, and he came and asked me out and I realized--no, he isn't--he's just my friend, you know. And so I didn't really date when I was in high school.

DUNHAM: I'm wondering if you noticed any changes with women having the work opportunities they had, the Rosie the Riveter, et cetera, if you noticed changes 00:28:00with women and attitudes towards women, and/or fashion changes because of the work during those years?

KUNKEL: Well, I'm unhappy that women still have to wear these darn huge high heels. My God! They're working. They don't need to attract a guy by wobbling their hips. Why do they do that? But that's me, you know. I know I wore high heels once. That was stupid, really. [laughter]

DUNHAM: But some women were having to wear work shoes and that type of thing, right? Did they mostly just wear those to work?

KUNKEL: Well, we didn't have uniforms like they did in Seattle, in Chehalis. We just wore whatever we wanted. But in Seattle they did have uniforms for them sometimes in their work world. But we just wore whatever we wanted. We had to keep our hair covered, because before they enforced that a woman was really 00:29:00damaged by her hair getting in the machinery, and oh dear--so we had to be careful.

DUNHAM: Did you join a union at any of your positions?

KUNKEL: No, I was a union person, I'll tell you. When I was teaching I helped to start the teachers' union. The bosses controlled the teachers' organization, and so I helped start a union that wasn't underneath the boss's thumb.

DUNHAM: So was that a statewide union? Or what was that?

KUNKEL: American Federation of Teachers.

DUNHAM: Okay, so starting a chapter at your school?

KUNKEL: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay. How did that go? Were you met with any resistance or--

KUNKEL: Well, they had spies that they'd send to our meetings. [laughing] I got such a kick out of that. They'd come and sit in and see what we were up to.

DUNHAM: And did you have specific things you were fighting for, for your school?

KUNKEL: Oh yes! The right to organize and to be our own people, yeah.

DUNHAM: In our phone conversation you mentioned a specific challenge for women teachers around pregnancy.

KUNKEL: Oh, that is the bane of my existence. I was fired--I was fired three or four times for being pregnant. I was so furious. I had to stop, rehire if I wanted to come back, and hunt for a new job three to four times--and I was so angry about that.

DUNHAM: Was that something you were ever able to advocate for within the union? When did that change?

KUNKEL: Well, I testified at the first hearing about letting women work that were pregnant, and holding their jobs for them. Yeah, I went downtown, and my boss went down to the same hearing to see what I was going to say. I had to take 00:31:00a day off without pay to go and testify! They had the hearings in the daytime.

DUNHAM: Yeah, this is Seattle?

KUNKEL: Yeah! And women can't--women could never get off the job to do anything like that, and they held the meetings in the daytime! [laughing]

DUNHAM: What were the results of those hearings?

KUNKEL: Well, it helped. They finally started getting pregnancy leaves and taking care of that.

DUNHAM: Do you know about when that was that they had those hearings?

KUNKEL: Oh geez, I don't know--let's see.

DUNHAM: In the sixties?

KUNKEL: Yeah, yeah. My youngest child was born--let's see--boy, where's my mind?

DUNHAM: [laughing] No worries. Take your time. And we can move on. I was just curious, the timing. Did most women, after having pregnancies, return to teach? 00:32:00Or did many of them stop teaching at that--

KUNKEL: No, a lot of them just expected not to teach. They would teach until. You know, the world was created by men that don't get pregnant. And women have always had to suffer for that--always.

DUNHAM: Did you know--it's not talked about much, but did you know of any women during the war who had unexpected pregnancies and/or terminated pregnancies?

KUNKEL: No, well--I never heard about it.

DUNHAM: Yeah, I was just--

KUNKEL: My mother was not a gossip, and no one told her gossip because she never gossiped.

DUNHAM: Yeah, no--I was just curious if you heard about it and with your longer 00:33:00perspective on such issues. Let's see--do you--what did you do for fun during those years? I know you were pretty busy between your teaching in school and--

KUNKEL: Oh gosh, in my earlier years, when I was in grade school I used to ride my bike, and we made stilts and we'd walk around with stilts--you know what they are?

DUNHAM: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

KUNKEL: And my whole neighborhood would get out at night, in the evening, and play games--run sheep run and hide-and-seek--you know. We were busy all the time. And I built a tree house, and I was what they called a tomboy, and I hate that because if a girl acts normal she's a tomboy, you know, and that's not fair. But I had a tree house, and I had books up there to read, and my special friends could come up and visit my tree house. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Did you go to the movies during this time?

KUNKEL: Oh yeah. I loved--

DUNHAM: What do you remember about that?

KUNKEL: --the movies. And we had, for $ 0.10 you could go to the matinee on Saturday, so I went a lot because I just loved the movies.

DUNHAM: We visited, in Centralia, the Fox Theater is it? Did you go there at all, or that was too far?

KUNKEL: No, I didn't get over there too much because we didn't--we were really stuck because we--my mother had a county car, but she was so honest that she wouldn't use it for any other purpose than to go to work.

DUNHAM: Okay, okay. Back to your mother and serving on the council, was that unusual for a woman to hold that position?

KUNKEL: Oh yes! In fact, there was a fellow who wanted to be county superintendent, and after women got the vote they didn't even tell their husbands that they voted for my mother and she got in. And this one fellow was enraged to think that she got the job. He was so angry that he would call 00:35:00meetings of superintendents around the county and not tell her that they were going to have the meeting--stuff like that. It was really bad. He was so--he just felt so terrible toward her. I don't know how she managed, but she did.

DUNHAM: Yeah, I was going to say, do you know how she dealt with that type of hostility?

KUNKEL: Well, she never, ever complained. I never, ever saw her--I never heard her complain. She kept everything away from everyone, her feelings about that. Yeah.

DUNHAM: Interesting.

KUNKEL: She was a tower of strength.

DUNHAM: Yeah. Well, when did you form--I know you debated the Bible and you were clearly very thoughtful all towards school--when did you start forming your political identity, if you will.

KUNKEL: When I met my husband. He was a liberal, and he had been overseas and he 00:36:00had seen such terrible conditions and he wanted to change the world, so he really liberalized me.

DUNHAM: And what did he do when he came back from the war?

KUNKEL: Well, it was hard, because his only contacts were shipping out, so he--his friend was going on a trip to Italy for some reason, and he sailed with him to Italy. He was gone a lot, even after the years that he was overseas. He went to China with some program--the UNRRA [United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration]. I don't know if you know what that is.

DUNHAM: No. Can you tell us?

KUNKEL: United Nations Rehabilitation and Relief. A bunch of guys got a lot of money for administering that. [laughing] So he was gone quite a bit. And then I 00:37:00urged him to go to the U. and finish up and get to be a teacher, which he did. And then he could be at home, because the summers he would work up, clear up in the--oh, what is it--in northeastern Washington he would work up in the mountains in the summertime.

DUNHAM: What type of work was he doing then?

KUNKEL: Oh, just manual labor up there.

DUNHAM: So what was his background that made him such a strong liberal? Do you know?

KUNKEL: His parents--he grew up in South Dakota and things weren't too great there. And his father came to Yakima and got job and then he sent for the family. And Norman was the eighth child--I was the eleventh, so we were both 00:38:00babies. And his mother brought the children--and Norman was a babe in arms--by train to Yakima from South Dakota. Can you imagine? They found a place to live and they all got work, and so he grew up in Yakima.

DUNHAM: So it's growing up under those tough circumstances that made him--

KUNKEL: Oh yeah, well, it was hard for people during the Depression years too, really hard.

DUNHAM: What did he end up teaching?

KUNKEL: He taught elementary school--sixth grade. And the principals fought over hiring the men. The superintendent would allot them one man per building, because there were so few men that wanted to go into elementary school.

FUKUMOTO: It's still like that.

KUNKEL: And so he taught in this one school, Gregory Heights, just out south of town here. His whole teaching career he was in that one building. And he had people that would call him and contact him for years after they left school. He was well thought of.

DUNHAM: And so what, during those years, in the fifties even--I'm thinking of McCarthyism and different things. What was your political perspectives during that time?

KUNKEL: Now, what--

DUNHAM: Well, I just--as you said, he helped you in your forming of your political identity, which had clearly been growing before you met him, but during the fifties and all, were you politically active at that time?

KUNKEL: Oh yes! And he really--he really was a liberal, more than liberal.

DUNHAM: So how did that manifest?

KUNKEL: Oh, I remember--oh, let's see, what was he trying--he was going for some job and I can't remember exactly what, and the government was really spying on people that had any liberal tendencies.

DUNHAM: Sure.

KUNKEL: And so when he went for this one job they came--they had people come down to the house to be sure he was okay, because he had been associated with the Communist Party earlier.

DUNHAM: Right, so because of the--

KUNKEL: And then he found out that wasn't going anywhere. It didn't go anywhere in this country. But he wanted--he was always for the underdog, always trying to work for things so that everybody could have a good life.

DUNHAM: And so you mentioned earlier, talking about women's rights and advocating for women's rights, did you become active in that movement at some 00:41:00point, or how did that take shape for you?

KUNKEL: Well, I spent a lot of time--I was working too, but I had my summers off, but I would travel all over the state and talk about women's equality, for all those years in the sixties, yeah.

DUNHAM: And so you were working as a counselor in the schools.

KUNKEL: Yes.

DUNHAM: And then in the summers--so in what form were you doing that? On your own as an independent voice?

KUNKEL: Well, people found out about me and they would ask me to come and speak, and so I got to go all over the state.

DUNHAM: Wow. And who were your audiences?

KUNKEL: Community groups, women's groups--just almost anybody. And then I remember the Rotary Club in Seattle, they wanted to have a feminist come and talk to them. They had never heard from a feminist before, and so I came and I 00:42:00really told them. [laughing]

DUNHAM: This is pre-women's rights movement, pre-seventies? Or in that time.

KUNKEL: Yeah, well the sixties was a big, big effort.

DUNHAM: So what was your message?

KUNKEL: Well, I was a pretty hot speaker and I told them what I thought was the truth about women and the needs they had--all of that. And they were kind of shocked sometimes, to think that I would be speaking so vehemently about women's rights.

DUNHAM: Was the Rosie the Riveter era ever a talking point at that time for the work women were able to do during that time?

KUNKEL: They didn't find us Rosies for a long time in Seattle. As I was saying, the Washington Women in Trades linked up, and when they learned about the Rosie 00:43:00the Riveters they started being our mentor, and that's when it all kind of blew apart, you know.

DUNHAM: Right, because now the link is made to--kind of a delayed--in the women's rights movement, but--

KUNKEL: But I feel sorry that many women were overlooked and weren't found, as women that did so much! They just weren't part of history.

DUNHAM: But moreover, many of the women who did that work during the war years might have liked to have continued in that type of work but were not allowed that opportunity.

KUNKEL: Yes, that's right. That's right.

DUNHAM: So that's kind of the gap.

KUNKEL: One of my old friends who's gone now, but we teamed up and went places together--she met her husband at Boeing, and after the war she continued to work at Boeing and went ahead and worked there. But so many people lost their jobs 00:44:00because it didn't continue on.

DUNHAM: Right. And some then were able to, during different, other war conflicts, return to work but that was not reliable. Well, I'm curious also, given your work experience was the summer work, as it were, but what is your perspective looking back now on that era and the Rosie the Riveter period and how it can inform future generations?

KUNKEL: Well, I'm glad that it happened. It opened the world for women. It really did. Yeah, there were women who came from all over the country here, who had never been out of their town before. It was exciting for women! The world was opened up to them.

DUNHAM: And what do you see, being a long-time resident of Seattle, do you have a perspective on the women's aspect or also the racial aspect because of the 00:45:00southern migration up here and how it might have--

KUNKEL: I think Seattle is pretty liberal, and it's a good place to be.

DUNHAM: Are you familiar with the town of Vanport, that was the wartime housing that was created there, north of Portland?

KUNKEL: No, I'm not.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. All right. There was a flood there in '48, and I was just curious about it, if you'd heard about it.

KUNKEL: No, I don't know about that.

DUNHAM: Okay, okay. When did you start your writing career?

KUNKEL: Well, I was a writer ever since I was little. I would write poetry and I still have a poem somewhere in my files that I wrote to my mother on Mother's Day when I was eight years old, and I just love writing. It's such a wonderful release. It just is great.

DUNHAM: And what types of things do you write about?

KUNKEL: As I say, anything I want--anything I want! I sit down and I'll 00:46:00just--something comes to my mind and I write about it.

DUNHAM: How long have you been writing for the Seattle Weekly?

KUNKEL: Gosh, oh geez--ever since I came to Seattle.

DUNHAM: Okay, that's--I wanted to ask, when you were doing speaking and all, as a feminist in the women's movement, did you ever get any backlash at school or elsewhere in your life for those efforts?

KUNKEL: Well, if I did I never let it bother me. [laughing] No.

DUNHAM: And your husband--would you have considered him a feminist?

KUNKEL: He was a feminist too. He was a great, great person. He supported me totally.

DUNHAM: Well, looking back, is there anything else, particularly reflecting on the war years or any part of your life, that you'd like to share with us today?

KUNKEL: Well, I always try to be a beacon for younger people, to not let things 00:47:00get in your way. Don't stand back and wait--make it happen. You make your life happen. You don't wait for someone to give you your life, and that's very important for women, because they--oftentimes they'll stand back and wait.

DUNHAM: Well, that's very well said. Is there anything we didn't cover today that you'd like to share with us?

KUNKEL: Well, there's a lot of things I didn't cover, but--I've had a long life! [laughter]

DUNHAM: Yeah, well feel free, if there's anything--especially from the war years but it can also be from later. We haven't talked about your comedy career--when did that start?

KUNKEL: Oh, I--when I was very little I always joked about everything, and then when my husband was--he used to sit in that chair and he was debilitated, I 00:48:00decided to go on the comedy stage to lighten my life up. And that was when I was in my eighties. [laughing] I was eighty years old when I started. And he'd--I'd practice in front of him and he'd give me a lot of support. And sometimes, before he was debilitated, he would come and be in the audience and he'd give me support, you know. He was a very supportive guy to me. And then after he couldn't get out of the house I'd go and he'd say, "Knock 'em dead. Break a leg." Well, I did break my leg once and I went in a boot up to the mic! I said, "I didn't really think I had to break my leg really." [coughing]

DUNHAM: Well, that's a--must be something that helps keep you vital. [interruption in recording] Go ahead.

KUNKEL: People get too serious! You've got to lighten life up a little bit.

DUNHAM: Yeah, indeed. Well, the other thing I guess I wanted to ask, I know you've been involved with Cindy Payne and participated in those.

KUNKEL: Oh yeah.

DUNHAM: What has it meant to you to be involved with that and meet the other Rosie the Riveters?

KUNKEL: Oh, it's wonderful. Yeah. I get to do comedy at the banquet every year. I don't know--they still like me. [laughter] And in the spring I sit in the booth that they have at the career fair, and I love that. It's so much fun.

DUNHAM: And have you been down to the Rosie the Riveter National Park down in Richmond, California?

KUNKEL: No. I had a chance last year. About a year or so ago my guy and I took a train down into California and we could have gone there, but we didn't get there and that's one of my regrets.

DUNHAM: Oh, I'm sorry. Where did you visit in California?

KUNKEL: Well, I have a granddaughter in San Diego, so we went there and then we took a rent-a-car and went all across to Arizona and around and back and then took a plane back home from there. So my guy isn't going to travel anymore. He has some trouble, and so we're sticking around here now.

DUNHAM: Well, very well--did you have anything you wanted to ask? [To Candice Fukumoto] Okay. All right, well I guess--any last words from your vast experiences?

KUNKEL: Keep truckin'!

DUNHAM: Okay, all right. Well, thank you very much, Georgie. It has been an honor to meet you and record some of your story here today. So thank you, thank you very much for your time.

KUNKEL: Oh well, I'm such a ham--I love to be on stage and out there in the world, and so this just continues it on.

DUNHAM: Okay, excellent. [interruption in recording]. We're just back--we just 00:51:00want to resume with maybe a few stories or anecdotes about the not-so-feminist times of World War II maybe we can say, or just a couple examples of that. You were just talking about a Fort Lewis dance was it? Could you retell us that?

KUNKEL: I went to a dance, and Chehalis had dances for the servicepeople that would come to town, and so they had--I think the fire department had a place for the servicepeople that came to town, could have coffee or refreshments, and the young women would come in and then they'd dance with them or whatever, you know. So boy--now what was I going to say?

DUNHAM: Well, what was--I was not focusing, but it was where they could pick something--what was it?

FUKUMOTO: Yeah, you would go up on stage where the men would have to claim you.

KUNKEL: Oh yeah, we were asked to go by bus up to Fort Lewis and dance with the soldiers. So I put on my nice long formal, I got into this van. They took us to Fort Lewis and then I realized what they were going to do. They had us line up backstage, and one at a time we walked through this heart-shaped thing, walked through this heart and stand there for some man to claim us. I was so embarrassed! Oh, I hated that. It was horrible. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Yeah.. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And were there other things like that at that time, which were--

KUNKEL: Well, that was just normal for that stage in life. And of course I didn't have a dad, and your dad is the one that makes you a little feminine mystique. And I didn't have a dad. He died before I was born, so I became a 00:53:00whole person I call it. I didn't have to wait on some fellow to tell me what I should do or hide behind them or anything--I was a very independent person.

DUNHAM: Given the tendencies of those times, did that independence in you conflict at times with society?

KUNKEL: Well, I think it kind of scared the guys off. I didn't date in high school--and you have to give the approach signal, and your mother teaches you that and your father helps you with that, but they never did that in my family. So I did not learn to give the approach signal to males, and so I was considered to be unapproachable. My brother was a boy scout leader, and his boy scouts would tell him, "What's the matter with your sister? We don't have a chance with her." Well, I didn't know that. [laughter]

DUNHAM: If you had known would you have done any differently?

KUNKEL: You learn it unconsciously, and I did not learn that, so I was considered to be aloof.

DUNHAM: And in raising your children, how did you approach that?

KUNKEL: Well, it's interesting that they did their own thing. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Okay, so maybe it's--maybe it was--

KUNKEL: I remember my husband scared some of my daughters' suitors away. Oh dear. He was pretty imposing when it came to his daughter going out.

DUNHAM: So maybe the liberalism went out the window then a little bit? [laughter]

KUNKEL: I don't know. He was pretty protective of his daughters, I'll tell you. Well, he'd been overseas and he knew what it was like out in the world.

DUNHAM: Yeah, sure. Well, I appreciate you adding that, sharing those brief stories. Anything else we might add today before--sometimes when the camera's not rolling is when the best stuff does come out!

FUKUMOTO: Yeah, sure. [laughing]

KUNKEL: Well, if you heard about my whole life it would take quite a long time. I think I've done enough.

DUNHAM: Okay, well thank you again, Georgie. We really appreciate your time today and it has been a great contribution to the project.

KUNKEL: Oh, thank you for wanting to add my life.

DUNHAM: Yes, thank you.

FUKUMOTO: Oh, absolutely.

DUNHAM: Thank you very much.