Elinor Otto | Interview 1 | March 30, 2016



DUNHAM: Okay, this is David Dunham and Candice Fukumoto here in the lovely home of Elinor Otto, here in Long Beach, California for the Rosie the Riveter/World War Two Home Front Oral History Project. Thank you so much for having us today. We usually start at the beginning, so can I ask when and where were you born?

OTTO: Los Angeles, California.

DUNHAM: And when? When?

OTTO: [laughing] October 28, 1919.

DUNHAM: Okay, wow! Can you tell me a little bit about your family background, what you know, maybe starting on your mom's side?

OTTO: We had a very small family on our mother's side. She was a teenager when she had four of us girls. And my father--he had a huge family--from Oklahoma and Texas. But they separated when we were quite young and my two older sisters went 00:01:00with his mother on a farm and my mother took us two youngest ones. We didn't see each other--we all knew, we knew we had sisters, but we couldn't find them because he told his mother not to tell my mother where they were.

DUNHAM: Oh wow.

OTTO: Yeah, all these years. So my oldest sister, she decided she wanted to see us, so in those days on the radio they had a missing persons bureau program, so that's how she found us, through that program--even before all this technology.

DUNHAM: Did you--did one of you have to be listening? Or how did it work?

OTTO: No, we didn't. No, she just told us later how she found us. I forgot how the details went, but we got together. We didn't see--in our twenties. We were 00:02:00all pretty close in age.

DUNHAM: Okay, well going back--so you did you know either of your grandparents, any of your grandparents?

OTTO: My grandma?

DUNHAM: Yeah.

OTTO: Yeah, I did. I knew my mother's mother.

DUNHAM: Your mother's [mother] okay.

OTTO: Yes.

DUNHAM: Do you know where your family came from originally, your ethnicity on either side?

OTTO: My grandma--she never told us! My mother was Spanish and French, so my grandmother says she came from Spain. I'm not sure, because she didn't want us--she didn't tell us very much. [laughing] Anyway, and so my father was Irish, English--anyway, the League of Nations. [laughing]

DUNHAM: So how old were you when they separated? Did you know your father at all?

OTTO: When they separated?

DUNHAM: Yeah.

OTTO: I was just a little girl, about--one and a half or two, something like that.

DUNHAM: Okay, okay, wow. So four girls, two--?

OTTO: Four girls.

DUNHAM: Them, and where did you fall? You were the youngest, or--were you the youngest?

OTTO: No, I was second to the youngest. In fact, my youngest sister, she's--we just celebrated her ninety-fifth birthday. But she's got dementia.

DUNHAM: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. But she lives nearby?

OTTO: Yeah.

DUNHAM: She lives nearby?

OTTO: And then my two older sisters have passed away.

DUNHAM: Okay, okay.

OTTO: So her and I are the only ones that lived to our nineties. The other two were in their eighties, my mom was in her eighties. So whether--and I don't know why. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Wow. Well, can you tell me--so what was it like growing up then, in the twenties and then through the Depression?

OTTO: The Depression.

DUNHAM: Yeah.

OTTO: We didn't know it. As long as my sister and I were together, we didn't know what was going on, didn't have much money, you know, and had a hard time buying food. Then we moved to Long Beach--since then I went other places--but we moved to Long Beach and we'd go to the beach every day and find nickels and 00:04:00dimes and stuff in the sand and take it home, and they'd buy milk with it, for a nickel or ten cents, or whatever.

DUNHAM: Right. What did you mom do to make ends meet?

OTTO: Oh, she was working--first it was a box factory and then it was--oh, I don't know, different places, you know, but not making much money. And then she married a navy man and we loved that, because the Saratoga and Lexington aircraft carriers, were out in the sea out here in Long Beach and they'd take us kids on holidays, in a little boat to get out there, and they'd give us gifts and we really had a great time.

DUNHAM: So that was a--yeah, and where did you go to school?

OTTO: I went to school in San Diego--[telephone ringing]

DUNHAM: Do you need to get that?

OTTO: Excuse me. [interruption in recording.] Sorry.

DUNHAM: Oh, no problem, no problem. We're back! So you were talking about going 00:05:00to school--so in San Diego--so you were born in Los Angeles and then Long Beach and then--?

OTTO: Yes, my mom loved San Diego. She came to San Diego in 1915 and she said nobody's going to get me out of here except in a pine box. Well, finally she had to come back here because I was working--of course I have to go on with what I was working--?

DUNHAM: Right, right, well we'll get to that a little bit, but so growing up you were in San Diego mostly?

OTTO: Mostly San Diego and San Francisco for a while, and then here--because of the navy man. But the worst time was about--I was twelve or thirteen. My stepdad had to go to Panama--the worst year and a half of my life. It was horrible! The weather--you could take five showers a day and still feel miserable.

DUNHAM: Oh, humid.

OTTO: The humidity--and the raindrops were this big. But they never--you never felt--you could never have a flood, because they were gone by the time they hit the ground. They dissolved, because the humidity--I've never forgotten that.

DUNHAM: Yeah, what was school like when you were down there?

OTTO: It was--the schools were more advanced than here. So when I came here I had already done some of those subjects they had there.

DUNHAM: Okay, what grades were you down there for, do you recall? What year--how old were you about?

OTTO: I was almost twelve. I think I was almost twelve, and when we came back I was thirteen. I enjoyed the trip over there. It took twelve days.

DUNHAM: Yeah, what was that like? How did you get there?

OTTO: On the ship. It was a navy ship, and it took twelve days.

DUNHAM: Wow.

OTTO: And going through the Panama Canal took about eight hours. Eight to ten 00:07:00hours, and we enjoyed that. But when I got there and they gave us--before we got the navy housing, then we got in some kind of place, I don't know. I woke up in the middle of the night and there was a bug going up the--I was ready to come back! I was ready to come back right then, the first night! And then I had some toys and they had a centipede in there. [laughter] Oh!

DUNHAM: What was--what was food like there, do you remember?

OTTO: Food?

DUNHAM: Yeah, in Panama.

OTTO: I don't remember. They had cockroaches too.

DUNHAM: Okay, well--hopefully that wasn't the food.

OTTO: Any time there's heat, in hot places. So I won't go to hot places--Alaska or maybe something like that, yes. [laughter]

DUNHAM: So where did your mom grow up, that once she got to San Diego that was it, she didn't ever want to leave?

OTTO: Oh, in Spokane. She had my one sister in Spokane. Arizona--she was born in Arizona.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. Hot. Hot and dry in Arizona.

OTTO: Yeah, and it's funny, because she was a young grandmother. She was thirty-three when she first became a grandma. She was a good bowler and they had pictures in San Diego of her, the youngest grandmother, winning this--almost a perfect game. And we said, "Yeah--what's young about that?" [laughter] We were teenagers.

DUNHAM: Yeah, well--so did you have her first grandchild, if you don't mind my asking?

OTTO: Your what?

DUNHAM: Did you have her first grandchild? Was that your child?

OTTO: No, my sister did. My youngest sister.

DUNHAM: Oh wow, okay.

OTTO: Yeah, she--my youngest sister did.

DUNHAM: So how old was she?

OTTO: She was sixteen when she had her.

DUNHAM: Okay, okay. And was she a single mother? Was she on her own or was the father involved?

OTTO: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, she was married, and Nancy, my niece, it was her.

DUNHAM: Okay, and did they live on their own, she and her husband? Or did they live--?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah. They were on their own.

DUNHAM: Okay, and how about you? What was dating life like at that time when you were growing up, in high school?

OTTO: [laughing] I don't know why--I was very shy. If I knew then and felt like I do now, I would have had a happier childhood, but I was very shy, extremely shy. And then I married, and he had a little money--he was a little older than me but he was very nice. We had a house in Brentwood Heights. And maybe you guys don't know, or haven't heard, about that anti-aircraft firing in Santa Monica, in '43?

DUNHAM: I'm not sure. Can you--?

OTTO: Because I've told this story and nobody ever believed me. But finally I 00:10:00was interviewed with some people that--they told me about it, these young people!

DUNHAM: Yeah, well, tell us about it.

OTTO: They heard about it.

DUNHAM: Tell us about it.

OTTO: Because they didn't want anybody to think that we had ever been attacked on our shores. But I was in Brentwood Heights and I could see the anti-aircraft that night going over there in Santa Monica, close to the old Douglas plant. So the next day we went down there, there was holes in the ground and everything else, but it was never publicized except for the people that were around there.

DUNHAM: So do you know what happened exactly? Or--?

OTTO: I really don't know. We believe it was Japanese, an aircraft--I don't know. I've never heard that part of it.

DUNHAM: Do you know when in '43 that would have been?

OTTO: In about--yeah, it was about--I was trying to remember when I read the last time about it, yeah, something around there.

DUNHAM: Okay, okay. So you said you were very shy growing up?

OTTO: [laughing] Yes, I was.

DUNHAM: So did you like--?

OTTO: I had a lot of boyfriends though, but anyway, you know.

DUNHAM: Were you--when you say shy, were you naïve, did you feel?

OTTO: Yeah.

DUNHAM: Yeah, okay.

OTTO: Naïve, stupid. Just--young people. But different than they are nowadays. We weren't that aggressive. You know how aggressive they are nowadays. The girls invite the boys--we waited for them to call us! I wasn't about to run after a boy! Hah! That's beyond us!

DUNHAM: Well, how did you meet these boys?

OTTO: [laughing] They were right there with us!

DUNHAM: Okay, at school or elsewhere?

OTTO: We couldn't get rid of them! [laughter]

DUNHAM: Did you like school growing up?

OTTO: Sometimes, yeah, sometimes.

DUNHAM: Okay, did you have any favorite--?

OTTO: But I never did graduate, because in the service, every time we'd get into 00:12:00school then he had to go somewhere else and we had to go somewhere else.

DUNHAM: Your husband?

OTTO: Oh yeah, so--and then I went to work after I got a divorce.

DUNHAM: Okay, so how old were you when you got married, if you don't mind my asking?

OTTO: I was nineteen.

DUNHAM: Okay, nineteen. So--and you had your child, your son, before the war?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: So your husband was in the military. So where all did you live? You moved around?

OTTO: No, he wasn't in the military.

DUNHAM: Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

OTTO: No. My first husband wasn't in the military. No. My second husband had been--I didn't get married again till six years, between six years that I did other things and worked, just worked, you know.

DUNHAM: Right. Okay. So--sorry, just trying to follow the chronology. What year did you get married? What year did you get married, do you recall?

OTTO: The second time?

DUNHAM: The first time.

OTTO: Oh--'38, '39, something like that.

DUNHAM: Okay, and then--so did you do work before the war? Did you do jobs or were you busy raising your son?

OTTO: Yes, just as a waitress, things like that, carhop.

DUNHAM: So do you remember where you were when you heard about the bombing on Pearl Harbor? Can you tell us?

OTTO: Oh yeah. I was with my stepdad, navy, and my mother and me--we were in Santa Monica looking for a restaurant to have breakfast. Eight o'clock in the morning, turn the radio on, and there was Roosevelt talking about, "This day will live in infamy," and this, that, and the other thing. So my stepdad said, "Don't worry. We're not going to have no war. Don't worry." You know, that's where I was, driving in Santa Monica looking for breakfast. I'll never forget it.

DUNHAM: So how did--how did that affect your family or your community?

OTTO: I can't remember how much it did affect us. We just went about our 00:14:00business and seeing what's going to happen. And things started happening fast, of course. It took a little time to get to the rationing and all the other things that went on.

DUNHAM: Yeah, well tell us a little bit about that. I know you had some notes about rationing and such. Can you tell us about that?

OTTO: Oh yeah, you want to ask about that?

DUNHAM: Sure, yeah. What was--?

OTTO: Oh yeah, the rationing was--we couldn't buy shoes for the kids, we couldn't buy--silk hose, in those days women wore silk. There was no nylon. And butter and eggs and sugar. And no cars. You couldn't buy tires. All the rubber, everything rubber went for the war effort, of course. And the food too. So gas, if you were lucky to have a car, that was rationed also, for $0.17 to $0.25 a gallon, you know, $0.17. But we--

DUNHAM: Did you or your--?

OTTO: We'd have to carpool.

DUNHAM: Did you or anyone in your family have a car?

OTTO: I didn't--we didn't really have a car.

DUNHAM: Okay, so how did you get around?

OTTO: The bus. We'd go on the bus to work. I lived in San Diego, and Chula Vista, the first place where I worked, we had to take a bus, yeah.

DUNHAM: How old is your son at this time, at the beginning of the war?

OTTO: About two, something like that, yeah. But anyway, I'd have to go to Tijuana to buy anything, to buy hose, to buy shoes for my son and everything, and of course there's no quality in Tijuana. As soon as I washed the hose they'd fall apart and his shoes wouldn't even last two weeks. You know, that kind of thing.

DUNHAM: How would you get to Tijuana? On the bus?

OTTO: We drove there. It was difficult because they want to give you a ticket 00:16:00for anything. I had a boyfriend, one time we went down there, he made a U-turn and they put him in jail. He made a U-turn--until he saw money. Then they saw money and okay, bye!

DUNHAM: That took care of it, okay.

OTTO: That kind of thing.

DUNHAM: Okay, well what was it like having a young child at that time then?

OTTO: It was difficult, because like I say, they didn't rent to people with children. So I had him boarded out, in a nice family. She was a nice--she had a couple little kids of her own, and so my son was with them and spent quite a bunch of time with them. But it was difficult, because I was making $0.65 an hour, and that was--

DUNHAM: When you started at Chula Vista?

OTTO: And that was $20 a week, $80 a month. And I had to pay for my place, so it was difficult.

DUNHAM: But was that a lot more than you'd been making doing anything else?

OTTO: At the time, no, no.

DUNHAM: What kind of salary had you made in other jobs at that time?

OTTO: Well, tips, with a waitress you get tips. And I was carhopping, bringing 00:17:00food to cars.

DUNHAM: This is before the war or at the beginning of the war?

OTTO: Yeah, all that kind of thing.

DUNHAM: Where did you do that? Where did you waitress or carhop?

OTTO: Los Angeles and San Diego.

DUNHAM: Do you remember the places--?

OTTO: My first job--actually I went over there and they said, "Any experience?" I said, "No. If somebody else can do it, I can do it too." So they hired me. [laughing] Rosie, you know. [laughter] Even then!

DUNHAM: So, may I ask, when did you separate or divorce from your first husband?

OTTO: Golly, I can't think of all that time.

DUNHAM: Okay, but before you went to work in Chula Vista?

OTTO: Yeah, before I went to work for the war effort, yeah.

DUNHAM: So how did you come to work at Rohr Aircraft?

OTTO: Well, they were advertising for women, and I thought Wow, I'll get a 00:18:00steady paycheck. And that's such a challenge, and then we'll feel like we're doing something, accomplishing something important. So then we went there, and of course the men, at first, didn't want us--want women there. Because they thought in the summertime they can't take their shirts off or maybe they can't smoke, or whatever. But it didn't take long, after we proved ourselves, and they taught us some jobs and--

DUNHAM: Yeah, I've heard some other women tell stories of some of the challenges or maybe paces they put you through. Were there--anything else? Can you remember any other, what types of things did the men do to--? Was there anything else in particular you remember that they--how they maybe objected or made it hard for you?

OTTO: No.

DUNHAM: No? Okay.

OTTO: Oh no. Everything in my life is an adventure, whether it's good, bad, or otherwise--it's an adventure!

DUNHAM: Right, sure--no, and obviously you persevered through whatever challenges.

OTTO: Yeah!

DUNHAM: But I just wondered what some of those challenges might have been at the beginning.

OTTO: Challenges, yeah. We--you know, working with the schedules we had, they had to get the planes out. But I didn't work on a big plane then. It was parts, big parts that go on different planes, big parts. But they were hard. And I remember my first job was a piece--let's see, a casting, a very heavy casting and an uneven real thick piece of metal had to go in there, and nobody could figure out how to do it. So I got a mallet and I--I did everything till I finally figured it out, how to do it--knocked my brains out doing it! [laughing] So finally they put me to doing that for a long time. Then I had it all lined up for the other people to take over and put the rivets in and do this and drill them out and all that.

DUNHAM: So what was that job called? That was your first job?

OTTO: The first job in the plant.

DUNHAM: Yeah, yeah, okay. And was it a particular title, or what was your, what was your--?

OTTO: No, it was just a part. I don't know what part of the airplane it went to. I don't know. It was just--it was funny, but I got excited. That's good exercise! Yeah!! And they said they used to stand and watch me, they said, they used to stand and watch me pop it, the guys.

DUNHAM: Yeah, because you were very petite, but you were strong.

OTTO: Yeah.

DUNHAM: Were you strong already? Or did you get strong on the job?

OTTO: It wasn't so much being strong. I think it was ego and determination. [laughing] If they can do it, I can do it. That kind of thing. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Well, what--so what kind of training did you get there, do you recall?

OTTO: What kind of what?

DUNHAM: What kind of training did you get there?

OTTO: They didn't have time to train us, no. It was on-the-job training. New parts would come in, we'd get trained for it.

DUNHAM: All right, and you start[ed]--

OTTO: We'd drag the blueprints out and--

DUNHAM: Yeah, and you started at Rohr in '42?

OTTO: In Rohr in '42. He's got my paychecks, he's got my first paychecks!

DUNHAM: Oh great! Well, I'd love to take a look at that later. What was the makeup of the workforce in terms of like about how many men, women?

OTTO: Oh, there was a lot. Oh yeah, there was a lot--it became quite a few women, and of course some of the men that didn't go to war, they had a reason--sometimes medical, sometimes whatever, I don't know. But they had a name for them and it wasn't nice. Because everybody couldn't go to war. They had to have somebody stay here to help.

DUNHAM: So some people put down--?

OTTO: Well, sure, of course. But I remember three of the guys, their names! My first lead man was named Bob {Lawler?}, and another--Al {Schiesl?}, and another one I just remember his one name, Buffington. The big boss. [laughing]

DUNHAM: So Bob was your lead man? What was he like to work--?

OTTO: Oh, he was wonderful. Oh yes, I really liked--he liked me, I liked him. We got along just great, yeah. He figured I could do anything. He gave me a new job--here's something else. "Okay, we'll get it out on schedule." All this stuff. I was just happy to be doing it like that. And I like to do physical work like that, to keep you busy physically. Because I worked in an office for a little while, because I was a typist. I was never so bored. No, never so bored. [laughing] People ask you, "Why do you do that? Why do you want to do that? Especially at your age!" I just like to keep moving. They always say, "What's your secret?" Keep moving! Keep moving. That's what I'm trying to do.

DUNHAM: With all the new workers that came around the time you did, where were they coming from? You were local. Were most--were they coming from around the country?

OTTO: They came from all over. I remember specifically from Arkansas, Arizona, Oklahoma, a lot of places. But then most of them, after the war, went back to 00:23:00their home towns. Yeah, they did. And I was here already, so I just stayed.

DUNHAM: And were there a variety of races too? Were there African Americans or Latinos/Latinas that you recall? Or other groups?

OTTO: The what? I'm sorry.

DUNHAM: Oh, of--like blacks or other different races of people there? Was it--?

OTTO: People have even asked me if there was any black people, and I really don't remember. I don't think so. There was one lady, she was a black lady, she cleaned the restrooms and stuff like that--and she was tough! [laughing] She was a tough lady. She was just fighting her way, because of the way they were treated sometimes. [Narrator addendum: However in the 1950's while working, one black woman was hired and the bosses asked everyone if they were willing to work with her. One volunteered and they became good friends, as all the rest of us did also. Since then I have worked with many Blacks, Latinos, Asians. Love them all.]

DUNHAM: Okay, maybe because people especially--yeah, especially with the folks coming from the South maybe?

OTTO: Well, yeah, yeah, but she was nice. But everybody was nice because everybody knew we had to work together. There was a bond there that we had to 00:24:00win this war. It had to be won, one way or the other. So we pitched in and of course they had blackouts, dimouts.

DUNHAM: Yeah, can you tell us about those? How did they work?

OTTO: Well, because they turned the lights out all over in case somebody came over to bomb or anything. And of course everything was camouflaged.

DUNHAM: I was going to say, I know at Douglas the whole--

OTTO: Yeah, all of the buildings were camouflaged.

DUNHAM: So at Rohr it was the same way, that it was--?

OTTO: Like little cities. It was like a little city.

DUNHAM: So did you have drills to practice for--?

OTTO: We couldn't see [the camouflage]. It was on the roofs, you know.

DUNHAM: Did they have shifts around the clock? Or was it just day shift?

OTTO: Oh yeah, they did.

DUNHAM: Okay, and what shift did you work?

OTTO: I worked swing shift for quite a while. I prefer days because I'm an early bird,

DUNHAM: Oh, right.

OTTO: But swing shift--and sometimes my sister and I would feel sorry for 00:25:00ourselves. She was a riveter too.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay.

OTTO: And my oldest sister was a welder in Richmond, you know?

DUNHAM: Oh, really? Okay, at Kaiser?

OTTO: On the big ships. I've been there about three or four times. Yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay, and so what were your sisters' names?

OTTO: Jean, yeah, Jean, Evelyn, and Edna. So her and I would see everybody getting dressed, going to the big ballrooms. That's what we'd do on entertainment, on a day when you have time off, you go listening to all the beautiful music on the big bandstand, people dancing.

DUNHAM: So where would you do that?

OTTO: What?

DUNHAM: Where did you go do that in the San Diego area?

OTTO: In San Diego. Most places that had building airplanes or building anything for the war, they had the big bands all over, in big ballrooms and everything. So we liked to go and hear the music. Then we'd see people dressed up, going someplace, and we had to go to work swing shift. So we had a record, a 00:26:0078--you've probably never heard of it.

DUNHAM: Oh yeah, we've heard.

OTTO: On a little phonograph that you had to wind up. So we'd wind up that record of "Rosie the Riveter," to give us courage to go to work, know what we were doing and had to do it. That was our priority. So we'd have to play that when we'd get in those kind of moods, when we wanted to go hear the music instead. But they had a couple--I can't remember--all the beautiful war songs. They had one like: [singing] praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. And the other one--when the lights go on again all over the world. Because even England had to turn the lights out too, you know? It was just--just an amazing time. It was an amazing time because we didn't have to lock our doors. We didn't worry about locking our cars or anything. So people were different then.

DUNHAM: Yeah, so did you go to USO dances?

OTTO: No, not too much. No, not too much. We did, but not too much. Not when all 00:27:00the movie stars used to go there and everything.

DUNHAM: At the ballrooms in San Diego were there live big bands that played there? Or was it--?

OTTO: Big bands? Oh yeah! All the big-name bands, yeah, that played all the music.

DUNHAM: Did they have entertainment right at Rohr? Like at the Kaiser Shipyards they would have sometimes at lunch?

OTTO: Yeah, they would have--

DUNHAM: So what types of--?

OTTO: Of course jitterbugs. Some people would come in. One little guy there--boy, what a jitterbug he was! We just used to love to watch that. And they had a loudspeaker emit music while we were working to keep our morale up, you know. I remember that my famous song, that I adore, called "You'll Never Know." And they played that so much, and every time I hear that it brings memories of that time.

DUNHAM: Well, at your job, what was the makeup--like how big was your crew or 00:28:00how did you work together? You said you had that one job you would do of pounding that thing in for a while, so what--?

OTTO: Oh yeah, and the other jobs would come.

DUNHAM: Okay, so what was a typical day at work like for you? Like breaks or--and what type of work would you do?

OTTO: It was just a typical day like I've had all these years, of just go to work and do what you have to do. Through these last years it got easier and easier--politically, that is.

DUNHAM: As a woman? Or when you say politically how do you mean?

OTTO: All the way, because the unions had to fight for--we've had bosses that I used to call them Hitler or Mussolini, because they were just ridiculous the way they treated us. We got the work out! But not during the war--but I mean later on.

DUNHAM: Yeah, which I definitely want to talk about.

OTTO: It was their little egos, I guess. They were bosses, and one time there was a big layoff and all these bosses had never talked to us and treated us 00:29:00ridiculous, "Oh, hello! How are you?" and all that. We just ignored them. Here we were all laid off and they were too. So what makes them any better, you know? And the way they treated us--we didn't forget that! [laughing]

DUNHAM: Well, speaking of unions, when you first worked at Rohr Aircraft did you join a union then?

OTTO: Yes. They did, because we'd get raises, like $0.65 an hour, we'd get $0.20 more or whatever. When we got to a dollar, we thought we were--oh boy! A dollar an hour! Wow!

DUNHAM: And where were you living while you were working at Rohr?

OTTO: I was living not close enough to Rohr. We lived in San Diego, like further over, closer to Ryan, the little aero--where they built the Spirit of St. Louis.

DUNHAM: That you worked at later.

OTTO: I worked there, yeah.

DUNHAM: And who were you living with then?

OTTO: My mother. Yeah, my mother and stepdad and sister.

DUNHAM: And your son was being boarded during those times because you had to--?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Were you able to see him some?

OTTO: Oh yeah! On weekends I'd bring him home and everything. The poor little thing. You look back and you think of these things. That's him. [pointing to a photograph] But he passed away four years ago this year, but he was in the air force and they said he used to get magazine pictures and pretty ladies and he'd say, "Mama, Mama, Mama." [laughing] That used to make me feel bad, because they miss you. But anyway, that happened.

DUNHAM: Yeah, it was a sacrifice. And your sister was--she was working at Rohr too but she lived with her husband?

OTTO: Yeah, we were working together. My other sister was in Richmond.

DUNHAM: In Richmond, yeah.

OTTO: On the battleships.

DUNHAM: And your other--your sister that was at Rohr with you, she had a child too? So did she--how did she handle--?

OTTO: Yeah, she had a {couple take?}--

DUNHAM: So who took care of her child while she was working?

OTTO: We all finally got together with our kids, yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay. Did she use childcare boarding as well? Or how did she manage?

OTTO: Now, what now?

DUNHAM: Your sister in San Diego. How did she take care of her child when she was working?

OTTO: She had a lady take care of her, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she had a lady to take care of her. We had to do that.

DUNHAM: Because it was just--yeah, it was challenging then, right? It wasn't as formalized as today, child care and all.

OTTO: Yes, it was very difficult then, because a lot of women were raising children and working, which kept going on all the time anyway. Later on, the same way.

DUNHAM: There just wasn't as much support.

OTTO: The good thing in those days, you had to iron everything. Nowadays it's so wonderful you don't have to iron. So many times we had to spend a whole day practically, ironing--and that was difficult. To keep the ironing up, because we 00:32:00ironed everything. And to put--we used to put the clothes in a towel and put them in the freezer, because they ironed better when they were frozen.

DUNHAM: Wow!

OTTO: Oh yeah. I was so good when they were frozen. [laughing]

DUNHAM: So speaking of clothes, what did you wear to work and what did you wear in general? Did fashion change for you, at all, during the war?

OTTO: Just--what do they call them--slacks, whatever.

DUNHAM: You didn't have a specific uniform?

OTTO: No, no uniform. That's why I say now, with the Rosies, they've got this uniform and this polka dot hat and all that stuff. But we didn't do that.

DUNHAM: Right, but you wore--but wearing pants, did you wear pants prior to that a lot? Because some women I've talked to like--

OTTO: Oh yeah. Well, if they were--

DUNHAM: --only wore dresses until maybe they worked in a plant or something.

OTTO: Well, yeah, if we went out we'd dress up, but in the plant you had to wear them because you could drop a rivet gun or a bucking bar, something, and you had 00:33:00to be careful.

DUNHAM: Yeah, certainly I know there were accidents that happened at times. Did you have any close calls and did you know of accidents and injuries and how they were handled around you?

OTTO: No, not there. Not there, no.

DUNHAM: Okay, elsewhere?

OTTO: Later on I dropped a bucking bar on my foot and I couldn't wear high heels for six months and I was upset. [laughing]

DUNHAM: But you didn't have any time off work? [laughter] Did you have to miss any work?

OTTO: No, it's okay.

DUNHAM: No, it just was--wow. Well, what else can you tell me about your time at Rohr Aircraft? You worked there all through the war?

OTTO: Actually, they didn't know this--I ended up, after the war, I ended up at Ryan for the last six months before the war ended, because we got tired and 00:34:00sometimes we had somebody to ride with and they wouldn't pick us up and we'd have to take a taxi cab and it cost a lot of money. So we transferred--of course it wasn't like a transfer, because Rohr is Rohr and Ryan is Ryan. So we worked at Ryan because we were living real close to Ryan, so we moved there.

DUNHAM: But there were rules limiting being able to transfer jobs, right? So did you have any challenge doing that?

OTTO: Well, we just quit--we just quit and went to Ryan. Ryan gave me that [pointing to certificate on the wall]--that I did war work. So anyway, so the war ended and we was at Ryan.

DUNHAM: So what was--aside from being closer and more convenient, what were the differences between Rohr and Ryan during the war?

OTTO: We worked on a bigger part of the plane at Ryan, yeah. And in those days 00:35:00we worked on thin skins with flush rivets, and it was difficult. So they told us women, "Don't give the rivet gun to the men." Because the men could hold the bar in the back and go inside the fuselage and hold a bucking bar. When they put the rivet in, sometimes they'd make a little ding on the skin, where they weren't that fussy like we were with the different sets you had and everything.

DUNHAM: So you and other women were--?

OTTO: So most of the time we did the riveting. The women did the riveting, yeah. The men did the bucking.

DUNHAM: You and women were more precise, in general.

OTTO: Yeah. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Did you have a consistent bucking partner? Or did it vary?

OTTO: Yeah, we would have one, yeah. But we could change around. People knew what they were doing. They'd give signals when you want to change. That was good, okay. Okay, it's good. Knock it twice. Take it out, knock once. You know, that kind of thing.

DUNHAM: When you were commuting to Rohr, so I understand, you had to do it a lot of different ways. Like how long did it take to get there?

OTTO: To get where?

DUNHAM: How long was the travel from San Diego to Chula Vista at that time?

OTTO: I would say it was about fifty miles, forty-five--anyway, that's the longest commute I've ever had, because I usually live closer to my job. So that was--we got tired of taking taxi cabs.

DUNHAM: And what was your mom doing during the war years? She was relatively young, right?

OTTO: Oh yeah. She was married, so she was just doing her thing. Bowling and taking care of the different things. I don't think she had a job then--maybe later she did. I forgot.

DUNHAM: Okay. Was it a consideration for her to help out with her grandchildren?

OTTO: She did finally. Yeah, when they got older. She had a hard time when they 00:37:00were young. She had high blood pressure.

DUNHAM: And your stepfather? He was in the military, so what was he doing during the war?

OTTO: I don't know what he was doing, but he had an accident and he wasn't the same when he came back. He wasn't the same.

DUNHAM: Okay, so he was injured overseas?

OTTO: He got injured, yeah. You hear about all that, and it just upsets me. They want me to go see the veterans, and I'm so emotional that I don't know if I help, because I start falling apart when I see them. Because I've met a lot of veterans and they're inviting us every year to go to Washington and see all the veterans there, and I've met them and just adore them. They're so wonderful. One guy was ninety-eight and he said, "I just now had to start using this cane." [laughing]

DUNHAM: So when you see veterans they're all World War II veterans, not younger, more recent veterans? Or some of both?

OTTO: Yeah, the veterans of World War II and then with all the cadets, all the young people. They want me to tell them what they should be doing. Then I met--it has just been fantastic, it really has. I just--so they want to invite me again and get me on stage. They give me all these medals. [pointing to award on the table] They gave me that one award, that white one that you can see through--

DUNHAM: Yeah, we'll take a shot of your--

OTTO: They said that's the first one they've ever given to anybody out of the military.

DUNHAM: Which one is that, that's--? Oh, the celebration of--

OTTO: It's on the table there.

DUNHAM: --World War II veterans.

OTTO: It's the one you can see through.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay.

OTTO: The one you can see through.

DUNHAM: Okay, wow.

OTTO: And then I got that other little one from the British Embassy.

DUNHAM: Wow! So yeah, I want to talk about that a little more, but first maybe talk a little bit more about the war. How did you follow news of the war at that time? Were you listening to the radio? Seeing newsreels at movies?

OTTO: Yeah, radio. Mostly the radio. Roosevelt.

DUNHAM: Did you know other, aside from your stepfather, did you know people who were serving overseas, young men that you'd met?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah. He would bring some people over, some young guys, sailors and everything, for us to meet, that had been in the service and have dinner and stuff. And then the paper--we didn't have computers and all that, no instant news. And so every time something happened in the war that we should know about they'd go around saying, "Extra, extra, read all about it." And we'd run out and buy the paper, hoping that it meant the war was over, but there was too many things happening before that. So we was excited about the paper and Roosevelt and his fireside chats and talking about the war, and all that.

DUNHAM: What do you remember about Roosevelt's fireside chats?

OTTO: I remember they made us listen to them and we did, and it seems like that was the only president I had while I was growing up. He was--for three terms.

DUNHAM: A long time, yeah.

OTTO: And he was going to go on a fourth term, but he passed away.

DUNHAM: You said they made you listen to them--would that have been at work? Would you take a break to listen if they were on while you were at work on the swing shift?

OTTO: Yeah, if something important came along about the war, oh yeah, they'd let us know, for the radio, yes.

DUNHAM: At the shipyards they have ship launchings that they celebrate. Was there any type of activity like that to celebrate planes being completed?

OTTO: Yeah. Oh, they do? They should. That's right.

DUNHAM: I mean did they do something like that? Were there events or--

OTTO: Well, yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Did you ever--I know you said you're not a big fan of flying. You've been doing a lot recently, but did you ever--

OTTO: Of what?

DUNHAM: Did you ever fly in any of the planes you worked on?

OTTO: No.

DUNHAM: No, okay.

OTTO: My first plane, I was thirteen. My mother's boyfriend owned the plane, so 00:41:00he promised me a ride, so I got up there and I was so thrilled, just a little open cockpit plane, and I was so thrilled. Oh my, yes! [laughing]

DUNHAM: But you said now you do have a little fear of flying it sounds like, so where did that come from?

OTTO: That--not really. The worst fli[ght]--I've been to New York I don't know how many times, I've been to Washington, down to Dallas--all these planes have been wonderful, direct practically to Washington from Long Beach. But the worst one was a month ago when I went to Oakland to see my sister. It was a rainy night, windy night, windy, and the plane was doing everything. It usually takes an hour. It took over two hours. Yeah, and everybody on the plane was scared, because it was making different noises and everything else, and we'd see the 00:42:00lights of a city--oh well, we're probably going to land here. And he'd just keep going. So I was the only one that asked him when I got off. I said, "I thought we'd never land. What happened?" He said, "Well, with the weather and about fifteen planes ahead of me," I don't know what he was saying. But that was the most scary flight. Otherwise I'm fine with it. There was a time, when if I didn't have some kind of a cocktail or drink or something before I went on the plane, I just wouldn't go. So then when I went and saw my sister in Bend, Oregon--she had moved there. "What? You have no place to have a drink? I never heard of getting on an airplane without a drink." So I finally got over that.

DUNHAM: Oh, you did, okay.

OTTO: So I don't have to do that now.

DUNHAM: Well, I just wondered since you worked on planes all these years did it have anything to do with--?

OTTO: No, it was just the idea of being high. When I'm in a high building, like in New York, I get dizzy even looking down, you know? But when we built a plane, with all the inspectors around us, believe me it's in perfect condition, one of 00:43:00these--like our C-17. Perfect condition. But the airlines make money, because when they're in the air they make more money than doing maintenance all the time. That's where I would--that's the only thing.

DUNHAM: So it's not the building, it's the maintenance maybe.

OTTO: That's the only thing, yeah.

DUNHAM: What planes did you work on during the war?

OTTO: I'm really not sure. We built parts for all the planes, the B-17, all of them. Yeah, we built parts, part of the fuselage, the nose, the ailerons, the wings. Yeah.

DUNHAM: So at Rohr the entire planes weren't assembled, it was the pieces and then they were shipped?

OTTO: Yeah, assembling parts for all the planes, assembling parts.

DUNHAM: What was your, during the war years, what was your favorite job that you did?

OTTO: Favorite job--I liked them all. I really did. And then riveting--I 00:44:00recently taught some little, showed the little kids that we had, a machine--that's before we got the rivet gun--a machine like a sewing machine that had a pedal, and then you'd put the part and put the rivet and squeeze it, like that. And you'd put your foot down and it would squeeze the rivet. And I saw that in a museum. They had one of those in a museum.

DUNHAM: Right. Was that something you did often then? Or where did you do that?

OTTO: Yeah, I would do that too. I would do that kind of thing too.

DUNHAM: Wow.

OTTO: Whatever had to be done, had to be done!

DUNHAM: Right, right. I just wonder--all these different things. So each new task you did, most of them you got shown how to do, but some of them it sounds like you had to figure it out a little?

OTTO: Yeah, because we had to build the parts you know. Of course later on you'd build all these parts and then you'd drill them and you--there's a lot of work preliminaries before you get to the actual riveting part.

DUNHAM: I know you mentioned that you'd done office work before, and I saw a quote from you that said, "I resisted any suggestion that I switch to clerical or administrative work that was more typical of women's jobs."

OTTO: It was typical in those days, yeah.

DUNHAM: So were people suggesting you do that, or go back to that type of work?

OTTO: No. Sometimes they would ask me would you like to do this or do that, thinking that maybe you're not happy doing this man's job? But I said, "No! I want to do this. I like doing this." [laughing] Some lady asked me, one of the Rosies, "How come you worked so long?" I said, "Because I work with men." She said, "Oh, okay." [laughter]

DUNHAM: So what is the social aspect of work, and men and women working together? What was--?

OTTO: It's very interesting, especially my last few years here at Boeing it was so much fun. We had such a good crew building the spar that goes into the wing 00:46:00and holds the gas. And of course they're very fussy about the seal and all that goes with it, you know? But we always got the--schedule costs, that's the main thing for an airplane. And we all won awards, so many awards, because there was three different kinds of spars. See, the rear, the front, and the center. {Of course, there was right and left, therefore 6 spars in all. Lots of work!} We worked on the rear spar and we got so many awards. So it ended up with me being the only woman with four men! Before, it was a bigger crew, you know?

DUNHAM: Yeah, this is when they were winding down.

OTTO: You've got the technology and new machines and everything. They took six months to build this monstrous machine so they could put most of the attachments in it before we got it. But there was many attachments that it couldn't do, that we had to do with our own rivet gun.

DUNHAM: Manually, okay. This was very recently, because you, of course, extraordinarily, worked into your nineties, right?

OTTO: Yeah. Well, we were taken over by machines.

DUNHAM: Yeah, yeah. Well, but speaking again of men and women working together, was there, back in the war years, was there dating? Did you meet folks or did other people--?

OTTO: Oh yeah, there were marriages and divorces. And some women thought well, I don't have to be married anymore. I'm making so much money! Sixty-five cents an hour! It caused a lot of divorces and a lot of marriages.

DUNHAM: Was that a factor in your divorce? Or you were already divorced?

OTTO: Oh no, that was no factor. The war had nothing to do with me and my two marriages. No.

DUNHAM: Okay, all right, because your first marriage had ended before the war?

OTTO: Yeah, and then when I got married again--after the war, it was after.

DUNHAM: So what about you? Did you date during the war?

OTTO: Did I what?

DUNHAM: Did you go on dates during the war?

OTTO: Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay, and what was that like?

OTTO: It was fine. Nice people. We'd all get together. Being we were working the swing shift, sometimes--because the restaurants would stay open late, the movies would stay open late, to satisfy us, where we can have something to do after work.

DUNHAM: Yeah, because you were working swing shift.

OTTO: Yeah, swing shift, so we'd all meet--

DUNHAM: So would you go out when you got off?

OTTO: So we'd all go meet at a restaurant and maybe go to a movie. That was nice. And so you'd try to sleep half the day. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Yeah, what else did you--so were you working five days or six days a week?

OTTO: Sometimes six. It all depends if they needed something out right away.

DUNHAM: Okay. And so what else did you do for fun or on the weekends during those times?

OTTO: Well, with my family, we'd all get together, and friends. Yeah, we'd get together and go to shows and go out to eat and go bowling, whatever--I can't 00:49:00remember, some of the things that we did.

DUNHAM: Sometimes I've heard, particularly maybe with swing shift or graveyard shift that there may have even been some hanky-panky at the sites, if you will. Did you ever hear of anything like that?

OTTO: I don't know. I don't know. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Okay, no--that's okay. I was just curious. So how did you leave Rohr exactly? It was about six months before the end of the war?

OTTO: Yeah, we decided we wanted to be closer to our work, so we found out if we could get hired at Ryan, which they said yes, so then we told Rohr that that was what we was going to do.

DUNHAM: And was there any--

OTTO: And it was okay.

DUNHAM: Yeah, was there any sort of a--

OTTO: If I had known the war was going to end in six months I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have done that.

DUNHAM: And why is that?

OTTO: Well, I would have stayed there, you know, longer. It would have been easier.

DUNHAM: Because there was some adjustment switching to--?

OTTO: So I ended up at Ryan, the war, and I didn't go back to work there until 1951, yeah.

DUNHAM: So was it a difficult adjustment at Ryan, since you said you would have stayed at Rohr had you known it would have been only six months of work?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah. We built bigger airplanes there, and like I say, when the war was over, from '45 to '51 I didn't do anything on airplanes, until '51.

DUNHAM: Right, right. What was healthcare like during those times?

OTTO: The what?

DUNHAM: Healthcare. What was it--?

OTTO: I don't know if we had any. I don't remember. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Okay. I mean--you had a baby. Did you have your baby in a hospital? That was before the war, but--

OTTO: No, I don't--nothing. I had no problem. We had no health problems in our 00:51:00family, so I don't know how healthcare was for everybody. I don't know.

DUNHAM: Did you go to see a doctor periodically?

OTTO: At work they always had something in case something happened, but we were so young they didn't pay attention to us healthwise. [laughing]

DUNHAM: You mentioned getting raises. How were you evaluated or how did raises happen?

OTTO: Evaluated? Oh, they'd do that, yeah. They have records of people. Like absentees--they don't like people that are absent all the time, you know.

DUNHAM: Sure. With your commute did you ever have a time where you were late or couldn't make it because of that long commute?

OTTO: Oh yeah! You had to. So we'd have to call. We had to call or have a reason. There always had to be a reason. So that worked out. That worked out good. But there were--what could they do? They used everybody and they wanted 00:52:00everybody to be there and they knew they were all doing a good thing, that we were helping the war effort, so everybody was so good to us, so good. So I can't ever complain about that.

DUNHAM: Yeah, well do you remember where you were when you heard about--for V-E Day or V-J Day towards the end of the war?

OTTO: Oh yeah, we were at the house, in our house, and all of a sudden the radio blasted and everything, and the war was over. Everybody ran out in the street! The streets were loaded. We were out in the street just like that picture with the sailor--we were all out there doing that, and some guys came over to kiss us, sailors, and one of them got a glass and broke it with his teeth, drinking something and broke the glass with his teeth. Oh yeah. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Wow. So at the same time it was a great celebration it also--

OTTO: Oh yes, it was.

DUNHAM: When did you find out that your job would be ending and how did you feel about that?

OTTO: That what?

DUNHAM: At the same time there was this tremendous positive, it also meant the end of your job.

OTTO: Oh yeah.

DUNHAM: So when did your job end and how did you feel about that?

OTTO: It didn't last more than a few days after the war. And we didn't care. We all did our duty and we thought--okay, we did what we had to do. Now let the poor men come back and get their jobs back. When you think of all the men that didn't come back, you know. So we thought of all that and we thought nothing of it. We didn't think we were going to be a Rosie or that we did anything big. So we just went about our business after that. You know, that's all.

DUNHAM: Right. But you have a young son to support as well.

OTTO: Yes, I did.

DUNHAM: So there's an economic reality for you.

OTTO: So I went back to work as a waitress and other things I wanted to do, to get tips, to make extra money. That was good.

DUNHAM: How was that adjustment for you?

OTTO: Like I say, I adjusted to all this. I did. It worked out.

DUNHAM: Okay, but did you miss working on the planes?

OTTO: I did miss it, so when I had an opportunity to go to Ryan, I did, yes.

DUNHAM: Were there any times in the intervening years that you tried to find work at Ryan or elsewhere?

OTTO: No, I didn't, no. There was no time. I just went about my business until this occurred, that somebody was going to hire me. My mother--let's see, my mother was going to somebody that knew some big wheel at Ryan, and he talked about me, so I got hired.

DUNHAM: So that's what led to your job there in '51?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: So what was it like returning to Ryan?

OTTO: And I stayed there--and I even remember the three men that built the Spirit of St. Louis. They were still there. Old Man Ryan, [Fred] Magula, and [Jon] van der Linde. Those three guys were there. And we were so proud of them, 00:55:00built the Spirit of St. Louis. They used to have little airplanes of it all over the place. [laughing]

DUNHAM: So what was it like in '51 when you returned there? Was it just like before? Or how was it the same or different?

OTTO: It was different. Yeah, it was different.

DUNHAM: How so?

OTTO: They just had one production building and it was so small. Five thousand at its peak, including office help, bosses, everybody.

DUNHAM: During the war.

OTTO: Five thousand--no, now. Later on when I went back to Ryan. Yeah, yeah. So we became like a family, that one production building and we all got along great. It was just nice. In fact, I still know--there's only one person around my age now that I know. She's nine days older than me, and she recently put 00:56:00herself in a home, but we were both thirty-one then and we started working together, and I contact her once in a while.

DUNHAM: Were there many women working in those roles at that time?

OTTO: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

DUNHAM: Was it mostly women?

OTTO: No, with men, a lot of men bosses and everything, yeah. It was nice. I just loved it and we all became so close, because we all--the same crew all the time. It wasn't different crews like when I went to Boeing or McDonnell Douglas. There were so many big crews in such a big plant. When I left Ryan, five thousand, and I went in there--as soon as I'd walk out of the restroom I was lost! You know, it was just so big after Ryan. It was an old plant.

DUNHAM: So Ryan--so you worked there for how long, at Ryan?

OTTO: Fourteen years.

DUNHAM: Oh wow, okay.

OTTO: And then they stopped building airplanes. So every week we had a party, 00:57:00cake, and everybody, whoever was getting laid off that particular time--

DUNHAM: At the end.

OTTO: So finally we all got laid off.

DUNHAM: But that was a good run you had there. And did your job change much over those years, or what types of--what was your role then?

OTTO: You mean after we left?

DUNHAM: No, during your time at Ryan.

OTTO: We were riveters. Yeah, us women were riveting and affixing parts and drilling them and riveting them, with the men inside, the bucking bar.

DUNHAM: And was it all day shift then? Or did they--

OTTO: Yeah, it was all day shift. That was early, is when I came here, because they changed it where we had to start work at six, so--

DUNHAM: What were your hours at Ryan?

OTTO: I think they were seven to something, seven to four, three thirty, something like that.

DUNHAM: And you were still living near Ryan, in that area? A short--

OTTO: Yeah, I was living in San Diego, yeah, close to that.

DUNHAM: Okay, well actually, I wanted to ask, since you had some notes about the war years we kind of--is there anything we didn't cover that you wanted to talk about, about the war years?

OTTO: [brief silence, looking through notes, sound of pages turning] I don't know. I think you asked me most of them.

DUNHAM: Okay, all right. I just wanted to check.

OTTO: Let me see.

DUNHAM: And I have more questions about later, but I just wanted to--I'll pause for just a second. [interruption in recording] Okay. And then did you have other children?

OTTO: I just had one son, one grandson, and one great-grandson. I had three 00:59:00miscarriages that were all girls, would have been girls.

DUNHAM: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

OTTO: I've always wanted a daughter, but it didn't work out. It was all my fault, because when I was married the first time, at nineteen, I didn't know I was pregnant and we went mountain climbing--mountain climbing! And they said that ruined--yeah.

DUNHAM: Well, you didn't know.

OTTO: So those things happen.

DUNHAM: I'm sorry. I was just looking at your notes that you had. So when your time came to an end in '64, when you were laid off there, what was it like then? Was that discouraging?

OTTO: Oh yeah. Yeah, we were laid off for ten months and we all had our fun. We went out and [were] getting our unemployment. Writing our--we'd go see fashion 01:00:00shows and sit there writing, trying to get employment.

DUNHAM: Wait--fashion shows? What? I don't understand.

OTTO: Yeah, that's what we'd do, some of the gang. We all worked together. We'd fill it out in the new employment thing--going to fashion shows. [laughing] Anyway--

DUNHAM: Oh, okay, so you mean not exactly--?

OTTO: Yeah, that was when we was laid off at Ryan. So anyway, we'd all get together. So after ten months one of--my friend's daughter lived up here and she called. They called and said, "If you want a job you'd better come up here right away, because Douglas is hiring for the first time since the war, hiring women." So seven of us came right up here and were hired just like that. And they promised me--I'll give you ten years of work. Now here, I'd have been almost fifty [years in]. If they hadn't--if Boeing hadn't gone, if they had gone by seniority I would have got my fifty years in, but I had to work another six 01:01:00months. But being in the layoff they didn't go by seniority. They went by whoever did their part of the airplane was laid off first. And we built our wing first and we were laid off first. So I--that's what I miss, that I didn't get my fifty years in.

DUNHAM: At the very--most recently.

OTTO: At Boeing, yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay. But you did have a tremendous career there.

OTTO: Oh, they had so many planes and commercial--we built so many commercial planes, until 1990 when the C-17 came in. So we built 223 for the air force, which they would come in, the colonels and everybody all the time, talking to us and it was so wonderful. And so then from 223 to 279 was our last ship. Other countries purchased them. And then they ran out of getting planes--nobody wanted 01:02:00to buy any more of them. And all the pilots say that it's just a wonderful plane. They just love that plane, because the air force guy came over, not--a few weeks ago and he said he just loves that plane. He loved it so much when we were at a wedding, not too long ago, he called me at six in the morning and said, "I just saw a C-17 take off! And I thought of you and what you must have done to it." [laughing]

DUNHAM: Wow. Well, when you started at Boeing, but originally Douglas, right? What was it like starting there? Now, you said it was a much bigger place, so compared to your other two experiences--?

OTTO: It was different and exciting. I used to run around the fuselage with tennis shoes on, run around up there, and there was nothing to hold--nothing if I fell. Nobody cared, because we had rubber--you know. Of course later on we had to have a harness on. We had to wear a harness to get on the fuselage, over here 01:03:00at Douglas, McDonnell Douglas and then Boeing.

DUNHAM: Yeah. What were those transitions like, from Douglas, to McDonnell Douglas, to Boeing. Did they make a significant impact?

OTTO: Between Boeing and--?

DUNHAM: When they changed, when the companies were bought at different times or merged. Did it affect you as an employee?

OTTO: It was a big change, but when Boeing came in it was a bigger change. Right away we knew that they weren't going to be here long. We knew that.

DUNHAM: They were going to--?

OTTO: Boeing don't want to work in California. So when they took over we knew it wouldn't be long, you know? They don't--I don't know why. They've got--the plant is just perfect for building airplanes. It's right by the airport, right by the 405 freeway, and it has got everything in there, you know? I just don't understand it. They could give us work. But they're going to build another big 01:04:00plane. I don't know if it's--that's not Boeing. They didn't get that contract. I forgot the plane, but it's going to go to Lancaster. Lancaster, the little desert town. So that's going to be a busy place in about four years.

DUNHAM: That's Boeing? Or someone else?

OTTO: Not Boeing. They didn't get the contract. They wanted it, but they didn't.

DUNHAM: So as you approached senior status and retirement age--?

OTTO: Oh, oh! I've got to tell you something else!

DUNHAM: Oh yeah, please. [laughing]

OTTO: I got my driver's license. When I walked in this room and I saw all these computers that we have do that now, instead of writing it out. I thought I can't do that. I'm not a computer person! I did it and missed one.

DUNHAM: Okay, wow!

OTTO: I was thinking when I walked in there, all these young people they're going to be way before me. They're going to do this and that--they were still there when I left! [laughter]

DUNHAM: When was this? Was this recently?

OTTO: They were still trying to figure something out. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Was this recently, or when are we talking about?

OTTO: So I was thrilled. What?

DUNHAM: When was this? This was recent[ly]?

OTTO: That was in October. My ninety-sixth birthday.

DUNHAM: Yeah, wow--so you're still driving?

OTTO: So now I can drive till I'm a hundred. And with my nerve I might go in when I'm a hundred and try it. [laughing] No telling. I don't know what I'm going to do.

Fukumoto: Yeah, that's true.

DUNHAM: Now, did you have your driver's license as a young person, or when did you first get it? Because you didn't have a car when you were young, right?

OTTO: When?

DUNHAM: When did you first get your driver's license?

OTTO: Oh, when I was nineteen.

DUNHAM: Oh, you did. Okay. Did you have a car then? Or not till later?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay.

OTTO: Yeah, and I got it in Los Angeles, and they had the Motor Vehicle Department on a hill. I had to learn to back up on a hill and everything else when I first got my driver's license. [laughing] But it's amazing--some people say they have them tested to go out and drive, and I've never had to do that. I don't know why. I figured this time I went in they were going to do something to 01:06:00me. I'm old, I've got this age now, and they didn't do nothing!

DUNHAM: They didn't give you an eye test?

OTTO: Oh yeah, I got the eye test. Oh, I had cataract surgery. Thank goodness. I mean I was wearing glasses and somebody said, "You know, if you don't have something done you might not be able to get your driver's license." Boy I went in and I called up right away, made an appointment. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Well, I wanted to ask, as you're approaching "senior citizen status"--?

OTTO: A hundred, as I'm approaching a hundred, yes.

DUNHAM: Retirement age--no, but as you were approaching sixty-five or whatever--I don't know what the standard retirement age is at Boeing, but did you ever have any pressure to retire?

OTTO: No.

DUNHAM: No.

OTTO: No! And I was so proud that nobody treated me like an old person, older than them, you know? If the lead man and I used to fight, he'd get mad at me and I'd get mad at him--I'm glad, because he's treating me like I'm a normal person. He's not treating me with respect because I'm old--and I'm glad of that. I like 01:07:00that. That's why I got along--it was so much fun with everybody. But they'd give me birthday parties. At Boeing, the last four years--my God! At eighty-nine they started giving me these fancy birthday parties. And then the last one I had here all the big wheels came too, and oh my goodness. It has been--I appreciate all that. I really do. [Narrator addendum: Thanks to Ronald Reagan, there's no age limits as he claimed it was discriminations against age. I'm sure if I couldn't handle my job, the company would have found a way to force me to retire. They claimed I was an inspiration to the other workers, like if I can do it, so can they.]

But I also appreciate that I'm this age and don't have a cane or a walker, and all that, you know? I'm so thrilled. Because I've met some other people that do have these problems, like my sister with the dementia. She's got a walker. Poor darling.

DUNHAM: And she's in Oakland?

OTTO: What?

DUNHAM: She's the one in Oakland, is that--?

OTTO: Yeah, she's the one that lives in San Leandro, close to Oakland.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay. Near Oakland.

OTTO: It was so cute. I went to celebrate her birthday--she doesn't remember--she remembers me. She didn't even remember her own daughter! Her son takes care of her, and her daughter came and she said, "Who are you?" But she 01:08:00knows me because all she talks about is what we did when we were growing up.

DUNHAM: Oh, so she remembers.

OTTO: Because we were together so much. Doesn't talk about her husband or her kids. She talks about--"Elinor and I did this, Elinor and I did that." And we did that--[laughing]

DUNHAM: From your childhood?

OTTO: Yes, from our childhood. So it was so cute, because when I was there celebrating her birthday she said, when I left, she said, "I know I've got to love you, because you're my sister and we are related." Now, if I was normal, the way we used to tease each other I would say, "If you don't want to you wouldn't have to love me. You don't have to." That's what I would have said. [laughter]

DUNHAM: Right.

OTTO: But that was cute, because you know, she still remembers some things. It's funny.

DUNHAM: What is one of your favorite memories from your childhood with her, with things that you did?

OTTO: What we remember?

DUNHAM: Yeah, what's one of your favorite--?

OTTO: Oh! The time we ran away--it was my idea.

DUNHAM: Ran away, like seriously ran away?

OTTO: We ran away to Los Angeles from San Diego.

DUNHAM: Yeah, when you were how old?

OTTO: Twelve and thirteen or eleven and twelve. I forgot.

DUNHAM: And what happened?

OTTO: [laughing] See how the young brain works. I was listening to my mother saying to my stepfather, "You know, those kids need shoes again and I don't think we can afford them." And all that kind of thing. So I said, "If we're gone they won't have to worry about us!" That's what did it. So we packed up a suitcase--they were playing cards. They used to play pinochle with people. So we packed up a suitcase and away we went, over some kind of a--the guys were fishing and our suitcase opened up and we were so embarrassed. Underwear fell out and everything. We finally put it back in the suitcase and went to the bus station. No money. Lord--some man came over. I'll never forget his name. Paul 01:10:00{Conn?} was his name. He could see we were kids. He reached into my hand and handed me a five dollar bill. A five dollar bill took us both on the bus to Los Angeles, rented a room for three days. We went to the show every day. Five dollars--

DUNHAM: Where did you rent a room? Who rented a room to a twelve and eleven-year-old?

OTTO: What?

DUNHAM: Who rented a room to a twelve and eleven-year-old?

OTTO: It was right by the bus station. [telephone ringing]

DUNHAM: Okay. Do you need to get--?

OTTO: Excuse me.

DUNHAM: Yeah, no problem. Can you reach? Oops, wrong button. [interruption in recording] We're back. So you were just saying--okay, you rented--I was curious how--who would rent a room to an eleven and twelve-year-old.

OTTO: I don't know why they did.

DUNHAM: In 1930.

OTTO: In those days--any kind of money, I guess.

DUNHAM: Okay. So you rented a room and you said you went to the show?

OTTO: It was just an old hotel, right by the bus station.

DUNHAM: Were you nervous at all, through any of this?

OTTO: No! We were too young to be nervous.

DUNHAM: You said you were a shy--you said you were shy.

OTTO: I know. I know. And there we were, having fun going to the show every day, and they had Eskimo pies, ice cream with chocolate, and they'd go up and down, "Eskimo pies, Eskimo pies." And we'd buy them and everything. So for three days we was able to eat.

DUNHAM: Eskimo pies.

OTTO: The third day we ran out of money.

DUNHAM: Only Eskimo pies?

OTTO: Then we ran out--all of $5.

DUNHAM: Did you leave a note for your mom?

OTTO: No!

DUNHAM: Oh my.

OTTO: No, we thought we was helping her. She wouldn't have to buy shoes.

DUNHAM: Wow. So you ran out of money.

OTTO: My mom somehow had a friend that found us. I don't know how she found us. So she put us on the bus and told the bus driver to, "Keep your eye on those girls." I think he was looking in the mirror at us more than on the freeway or on the street.

DUNHAM: Wow. The runaways.

OTTO: Al the way.

DUNHAM: What happened when you got back? Was there--?

OTTO: Oh, my mom was so happy to see us. No, there was no reprimand. She was too happy to see us. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Okay. Did you tell her why you left?

OTTO: I think I might have. I might have. I don't know.

DUNHAM: Wow, what an adventure.

OTTO: But I'm a big believer--these young people, I think back--look how stupid I was, you know? How can I condemn them when I did worse? [laughter]

DUNHAM: Yeah, well--you said about seven women came up--was it all women?--that came up to Douglas at the same time as you, in '65?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: And so how many--were they similar age? Or some younger, varied?

OTTO: I was the only one that stayed. They all went back.

DUNHAM: They didn't stay, like did they--?

OTTO: They didn't stay too long. They went back to San Diego.

DUNHAM: Okay, like a year or two?

OTTO: Yeah, what?

DUNHAM: Like a year or two?

OTTO: Oh no! Less than that.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay.

OTTO: Yeah, they--

DUNHAM: So why was that, that none of--?

OTTO: I don't know. Well, one of them was in love with somebody and another had a chance to go back to Ryan with the seniority. I could have gone back. They 01:13:00called me back three or four times too, but I was already up here, we was already moved up here.

DUNHAM: So you'd kind of resettled.

OTTO: And I thought I'd be on the list of another layoff. Anyway--

DUNHAM: You felt like there was more security?

OTTO: --because they didn't build any more after that anyway, so yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay, so a longer-term security. They told you at least ten years and it turned out to be almost fifty.

OTTO: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Almost fifty.

OTTO: So I was smart enough to stay anyway. [laughing]

DUNHAM: You did mention earlier that some of your bosses in the later years were difficult. You used some pretty strong references.

OTTO: Difficult wasn't the word for it. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Okay, so what kind of challenges were those?

OTTO: Well, he'd just treat us like he was the Gestapo. I'd say, "Oh, here comes the Gestapo." He didn't treat us like human beings. So finally, I guess it was the union and everybody got together, that we were going to not pick on the people. Let them do their thing their way instead of saying, "What time is it?" 01:14:00In those days we, by the first whistle you had to have a rivet gun in your hand or a motor in your hand or something, be ready to go to work. After that, it didn't happen that way and we still got the job done. We took our time getting dressed and we had a meeting and talked to people. And then we'd go to work and everything was so much better. And we got all the schedules out on time. So you know--

DUNHAM: So after that boss left is what you're saying.

OTTO: Well, yeah! Yeah. In fact, it was kind of a routine of most bosses were acting that way at the time.

DUNHAM: Oh okay, so it wasn't just one person.

OTTO: So they had to change their way of treating people, you know?

DUNHAM: Did the workers or the union complain or voice formal complaints about it?

OTTO: I think the people complained. They were always complaining about certain bosses and going to HR. Now, here I've thought about HR, one thing, because on 01:15:00my last birthday one of the big bosses , with a famous nice speech about me, and he said, "Elinor has been here all these years and she has never gone to HR." And I was glad about that, because a lot of people go the least little thing. "He picked on me, he said this, he did that, I'm not," and that kind of thing. And I just did my business. I just wanted to get my job done, and they made fun of that, because I had to get my job done.

DUNHAM: Is there anything that one particular boss could have done that would have been over the line, that would have made you go to HR?

OTTO: No.

DUNHAM: No? Okay, you just--

OTTO: One morning I was reading the paper and he came by and grabbed it out of my hand and threw it down. Yeah!

DUNHAM: So he just--all work, all the time kind of--?

OTTO: Stupid. Another stupid thing. No, I would never go--I figured I could fight my own battles, like I do with my lead man. So many people used to say, 01:16:00"Why don't you take him to HR? He's picking on you." "I don't care." And now we're friends. He's the one that organizes when we all get together. We go to a restaurant and all meet and everything. [laughing] And him--when my baby died, it was an outside--what do you call it--a graveside funeral. All of a sudden I saw a bunch of people over there, besides my people that were with us. I said, "Well, I guess it's another funeral up there." [Narrator addendum: special memory of my son's graveside funeral, my entire crew came for support. We were like family. Used to call my son baby.] It was my whole crew and the bosses, and it was just something else, you know? So I'm so grateful for the way people have been. So nice. So that really helped me a lot. So they're caring people, they're caring people. So when you fight with people, or over the job or like that--it's 01:17:00no big deal to me. HR? Who cares about them. I can take care of myself.

DUNHAM: Well, so it sounds like what you're saying is you were able to be direct if there was enough issue, you said, with your lead man where you would fight your own battles, you said.

OTTO: Well, he's the one that picked on me, yeah, the lead man. But I didn't think of mentioning it to him because he did that to everybody. [laughing] But they used to think I should take him to HR. One time he made me so mad I went outside and sat out there for a long time. I wasn't going to come back in for a long time. So finally he sent somebody out there to see how I was. [laughing] He sent one of the gals, one of our coworkers, you know.

DUNHAM: Do you remember what he did to make you that mad?

OTTO: No telling. He might have said something--I don't know what he did. Who knows. He did so many things.

DUNHAM: Were there any strikes or other union actions during your time there?

OTTO: Any what?

DUNHAM: Strikes.

OTTO: Oh yeah. We had a couple strikes. Through those years I had a couple strikes.

DUNHAM: And so did you participate?

OTTO: I was off for quite a few months, yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Okay, okay. So you were--and so what was that like?

OTTO: It never helped. It never helped.

DUNHAM: It didn't.

OTTO: Nobody got any more money, in the long run. Didn't work out, no.

DUNHAM: So it wasn't over negotiation, you just--?

OTTO: No.

DUNHAM: The union ultimately just gave in, you felt? Or they didn't win any--

OTTO: Oh, I'm fighting my pension right now.

DUNHAM: Because of the--?

OTTO: Because they're not giving me--when you're seventy and a half you sign something--they force you to take some pension. The government.

DUNHAM: Okay, even though you're still working.

OTTO: Yeah, when you're seventy and a half. So there was something we had to sign. There's 2,500 other people they did this to. So they never raised the pension. I get, after all these years, I get $700 a month when I should be getting over $4,000.

DUNHAM: Wow. That's quite a difference.

OTTO: Quite a difference. So we have a lawyer and we're supposed to see about it in July. So they took us to the courts. They said they'll have--the lawyers said it would be better at the courts. The courts will handle it.

DUNHAM: Wow.

OTTO: You know, corporate America, corporate America. [laughing] And then there's Donald Trump. [laughter]

DUNHAM: Well, so speaking of that I know you've said you didn't retire and I know you wanted to make it to the fiftieth year. So I guess can you talk about when you were laid off, I guess, the last time? It was because they were closing and just--how close were you to fifty years?

OTTO: My last day of work was November 21, 2014. I was ninety-five.

DUNHAM: Wow, okay.

OTTO: My last day of work.

DUNHAM: And you were how close to fifty years?

OTTO: Another six months would have made fifty years.

DUNHAM: Oh, yeah. And they did stay open past then?

OTTO: Well, yeah, for other people. I see why the company did it, for the benefit of course, because they wanted to get the plant closed as soon as possible, so if they had done it by seniority they would have sent people to jobs they hadn't done. And it would have taken longer to teach them. You'd have to learn a new job and it would take long. This way they kept the people on their old jobs all through it all, and when they got done with it then they were laid off. So I can see that reason, you know.

DUNHAM: And were you still working full-time?

OTTO: Oh yeah! Oh yeah. In fact, I never--hardly ever took time off. I just didn't miss hardly any time so much they sent me a jacket one time for having such a good record.

DUNHAM: And did you take your vacation time?

OTTO: Oh yeah. I would take vacation time. In fact, I was known at one time as 01:21:00the mini-vacation lady, because every time that we'd have a holiday I'd add some days to it, you know. [laughing]

DUNHAM: So as you got into your eighties and nineties did it affect you at all on the job, doing this physical work?

OTTO: No! I didn't do anything different. No, not at all. I did the same thing. [laughing]

DUNHAM: Did anyone ever question it or--?

OTTO: No, they were all so good to me. When the air force used to come in they'd all come over and they'd want to take pictures and thank me for working on their plane. They just loved the C-17. I'm just amazed that--there's always smart alecks. A couple of guys said, "When are you going to retire?" I said, "Well, when I win the Lotto." And then one of them said, "You'd probably still keep working if you win the Lotto." I said, "Yeah, I probably would, but I'd come to 01:22:00work in a limousine." [laughter] You have to say it, you know.

DUNHAM: So did you enjoy your work--

OTTO: I did.

DUNHAM: --as much on your last day as your first day?

OTTO: Yeah. The last three months we were there we didn't actually do any work. We didn't build part of the plane because we was almost done with it anyway. So they had certain days for everybody to be laid off. So we'd just go in there and start packing up things. Going to the offices, taking out computers, packing them in boxes, and a lot of things, books and things, we'd send to the schools and that type of thing we'd do.

DUNHAM: So not that part, but up until you were still working on the planes you enjoyed it just as much?

OTTO: Yeah, yeah.

DUNHAM: Well, I usually ask women how they felt about their wartime work, but in your case I'll say your whole career--how do you feel that doing this so-called men's work during all these years influenced your life?

OTTO: Well, I've learned a lot and I sure know a lot about men--their attitudes. One guy said to me, because I couldn't lift a hundred pounds, he said, "You make as much money as I do, how can you do that?" I said, "I can't help if you're all brawn and we're all brain." You know, you've just got to think of things to say. [laughter]

DUNHAM: Did you, since you worked so much with men, did you feel like one of the boys? Or was it--?

OTTO: No. I was never treated like one of the boys, although I was very close to them. In fact, there was one guy--they just moved to Spokane, Washington, and we used to sit every morning--after the meeting was over we'd still sit and talk. He's kind of religious and we'd talk about things--I became close to so many of 01:24:00them. It was just so beautiful. And the women too. I'm more used to working around men than women, but the women were great, just great.

DUNHAM: And how do you think the work you did, starting in World War II, has influenced future generations and opportunities for women?

OTTO: Well, yeah--I went to luncheon one time with the CEO lady, you know, and she was thanking me as though I did something, paved the way, paved the way for them. So all these women, with their big jobs and everything, that paved the way for the Rosies. And I said there's a lot of Rosies. There's one lady, one lady at Boeing that has been there sixty years, but she's not a Rosie. But she's been over there sixty years!

DUNHAM: She did office work or other administrative work?

OTTO: No. She never worked during the war.

DUNHAM: Oh, okay.

OTTO: Yeah, so therefore she's not a Rosie--and I get this attention. I hear 01:25:00some things, you know. But I'm getting attention because who works till they're ninety-five?

DUNHAM: Right.

OTTO: I guess that's--you know, that's it. There's a lot of Rosies--I've gone to a convention of Rosies, and they're just so nice and so many of them that are healthy yet. Most people think the Rosies are all dead or all on walkers--and that's not true. That's not true.

DUNHAM: Well, can you tell us what it has meant, your involvement with the American Rosie the Riveter Association and the Spirit of '45 and to go speak--what has that meant to you?

OTTO: Oh yes! We want the young people to realize the sacrifices that were made for their benefit. They're living the way they are because of the war, because we won it, we had to win it. And the Spirit of '45--keep that alive! Don't let it die, don't try to take it out of the history books. Because I remember 01:26:00reading about Germany--they tried to take out the, what do you call it that they had?

DUNHAM: The Holocaust.

OTTO: Hitler, the Holocaust--they tried to take that out of the history books. So I don't want us to try to do something like that. That did happen, you know? And I think the young people are kind of thrilled about this, because I get calls from young people going to grammar school and taking tests, and they said, "Because of the things you told me, I got an A in my class." And things like that. It's so cute, you know? And the teenagers--no, young people are quite aware of what happened. And now they're hearing about--they know about the Rosies. My nail girl, she saw the paper that said something about a Rosie. She said, "Her name's not Rosie, it's Elinor." She had no idea what it's all about. So a lot of people don't understand what the Rosies are, because it's so funny, 01:27:00because the Rosies' children are called--what? I forgot.

DUNHAM: Oh, through the ARRA--I've forgotten the name too, but they do have a name for it.

OTTO: I can't remember it.

DUNHAM: Yeah, it's cute.

OTTO: But it's so cute. They all have a name. And the men are called Rivets, and the Rosies are called--oh God, the daughters. [Narrator addendum: Boys are called rivets and girls are 'Rose Buds.']

DUNHAM: It'll come to us.

OTTO: I can't remember.

DUNHAM: Yeah. Well, you said during the war years you would sing the Rosie the Riveter song and you knew that.

OTTO: Yeah!

DUNHAM: And you had a sense of patriotism. But there has been sort of, with this newfound recognition and your celebrity, if you will, being interviewed on Ellen and all over--

OTTO: Oh yeah.

DUNHAM: What has that been like? What does it mean to you to be the face, one of the faces of the Rosies and the wartime effort?

OTTO: Well, I'm proud of it now. I never realized that it meant anything. I was shocked when I got--when that picture came on the Times, I went to the 7-Eleven one morning and I saw my picture on the front page. What?! And I told the kid, 01:28:00when I paid for it, I said, "That's me!" He said, "Oh yeah, I read about you in the history books." [laughing] Well, not everybody does. And then when I went to Sacramento, the nomination of--but there's many, women of the year, and they all have to be nominated by somebody. So Lowenthal, Bonnie Lowenthal nominated me, so we went to Sacramento. That was fun.

DUNHAM: And Bonnie Lowenthal is--?

OTTO: She was the councilwoman, yeah. She was with me and that was so nice to go in the Capitol and see what they do and everything. So I just can't understand, just because I worked all my life? [laughing]

DUNHAM: Right. Well, it's obviously also about your youth[fulness].

OTTO: It's amazing!

DUNHAM: Are there any other--I know working and staying active, but are there any other secrets you have to your youthfulness and your longevity?

OTTO: I think attitude has a lot to do with it. Sense of humor has a lot to do with it, because you're going to have derogatory things happen in your life and you've just got to pass it off and laugh about it, you know? You can't take things seriously. Because when I was younger--you know when you're young you take things seriously. You know, everything is so important. Well, when I get older and older the priorities get less and less--and it makes you happier, really. You can take things that would be so difficult for you years ago. They really would. So I was going to think of something else and I can't remember what it was now. See what I mean? I'm old!

DUNHAM: Well, if it comes back to you let me know. But yeah, reflecting on the war and years and how it fits into the story of your life, is there just anything else you would like to share with us today?

OTTO: There was something. I can't remember--I know I'll think about it later.

DUNHAM: Okay. Well, I'll ask you one other thing. We've talked about it a little already, and so that maybe this other thing will come to you when I ask this. Is there anything else you'd like to impart to the youth and future generations? Because of course this, long after we're all gone your voice will speak to people to help tell the story, so is there anything else?

OTTO: Well, I just hope--I've always said that if I could inspire one person I'd be thrilled. But they tell me I inspire people. Everybody says that. So if I inspire people, they're hoping they can live to this age and be healthy and get around, I hope they can. And that's an inspiration that I want to pass on, yeah.

DUNHAM: Great.

OTTO: And the young people, because I was being interviewed by about fifty kids from six to ten--they were so cute. It was in a museum somewhere in Washington. 01:31:00But anyway, they all had a little Rosie button on their, and they all had a question to ask me, a little written question. And I took a picture with all of them. It was so cute. They would ask me all these questions. And they had this big picture of me when I was young, in the back. And one little guy in the back said, "She's just as pretty now as she was then." I said, "You know son, you will go far in life." [laughter] Nine years old! So cute. So then I answered all these questions, and that was one of my favorite times, with the little kids. Then I went to this high school with the teenagers and I didn't like it as well, with the boys. [laughing] The girls were great. The girls were great. I had a 01:32:00Tuske[gee] veteran with me.

DUNHAM: Tuskegee airman.

OTTO: And the boys were all thrilled with him and asking him all kinds of questions. And that was so cute, because he did a lot. I was with some Tuske[gee] veterans over there in Dallas, yeah, a couple Tuske[gee] veterans. So they're getting their just dues now and people are realizing what they did, so that's good.

DUNHAM: Good, yeah.

OTTO: I'm proud of that.

DUNHAM: Well, so I know you weren't ready to retire. Has keeping active in this and telling your story, has that made your retirement from Boeing a little easier?

OTTO: I don't want to ever say I retired. I didn't retire. I was laid off! My nephew laughs about it! My ninety-six-year-old aunt went to the unemployment office to get her unemployment check. He can't believe it! [laughter] Whoever heard of such--yeah, I went in there and I said, "I'm ninety-five years old. I'm 01:33:00sure you're going to find me a job." But you know what? Some guy called my grandson that day, and he had a little airplane plant and he wanted me to work for him! He said, "Don't you know how old she is?" "Yeah, we don't care." [laughing] God!

DUNHAM: So did you consider it?

OTTO: No. [laughter]

DUNHAM: So you are ready for this next chapter.

OTTO: Because I've been to these museums and I started checking the rivets. So one guy said--I said, "We wouldn't have bought these. My inspector wouldn't have bought these rivets." So he gave me a rivet gun. He said, "Well, you fix them then!" He gave me a rivet gun. I've got a picture of me with a rivet gun. [laughing]

DUNHAM: And you did get to bring home a rivet gun? You have--is that right?

OTTO: Oh, the big rivet gun. Yeah, my lead man. We've got thicker material now and sometimes those big attachments, 3/16s and so, and 5/16s, won't go in when you shoot it in with my little--I've got a rivet gun up there, a little rivet 01:34:00gun. So I go get this big rivet gun and he went to tell the boss, "She's got this big rivet gun," carrying on, you know. I said, "You know what? I was doing this before you were born." And so you've got to tell these things. [laughing] God! So you do have to fight your way with men. It's a challenge. I said, "I'm not as puny as you think I am, as I might look. I'm not that puny."

DUNHAM: Well, so having to fight, and you mentioned the teenage boys maybe not being as good an audience as you'd hoped. Do you feel like things have come a long ways, or do you feel like there's a lot more progress to be made for women in the workplace and beyond?

OTTO: Well, things like manufacturing is going out of business, with all the new things coming in, you know--computers and all. So I don't think we'll have a problem with anything going on with manufacturing much any more. It doesn't seem like. Although they've got to build airplanes.

DUNHAM: Did the process for building airplanes, and your role, change much over the years? Or was it--with technology or--?

OTTO: Oh, a lot of new technology. Oh yeah. A lot of different types of attachments, yeah.

DUNHAM: So did you--?

OTTO: There used to be little rivets holding it together, small. Now there's real long ones and all these different kinds of attachments, not just rivets. Well, there are different types of cherry rivets, all kinds of things, yeah, to hold it, because the thicker material now, much thicker. Because we had, on those wings built in the spar, it was very thick material. [a dog barks in the background]

DUNHAM: With your vast experience did you, as years went on in the job, did you do more training or teaching?

OTTO: Did what?

DUNHAM: Did you do training or teaching a lot?

OTTO: Oh yes, I did! Oh yeah. In fact, about seven of us went to Arkansas when they gave us the aileron. They passed on the flaps and the aileron to the little 01:36:00plant in Arkansas called Horseshoe Bend, and it's about 140 miles from the state of Arkansas. And I had a lot of fun there. Three months there. We went in July and came back in October, and I had a car--we had to share with somebody. A brand new little Oldsmobile the company gave us. I was the only one that owed the company money when I came back, because on Friday night--do you think I'm going to stay and save my money like they did? They stayed in the hotel and didn't do nothing. Friday night I was gone! I went to Memphis one time, went to Oklahoma another time. Oh yeah. I'd come back Sunday night and go to work. So I owed the company at least $500 when I got back.

DUNHAM: So you had--because of--?

OTTO: That's what I want to tell these lawyers. I thought when people owed people money they're supposed to pay it. How come you don't pay me my money? [laughing]

DUNHAM: Wow, wow. Well, that's frustrating.

OTTO: But that was fun.

DUNHAM: Yeah, so did you do other traveling like that?

OTTO: And Bill Clinton came and had lunch with us!

DUNHAM: Oh, there in Arkansas?

OTTO: Yeah, in our cafeteria when he was governor of Arkansas.

DUNHAM: Wow, so this is a while back.

OTTO: And those women--he was so handsome then us women couldn't eat lunch. When he walked in we--hmm, you know? [laughing] So then he came in the hotel and they said, "Well, Bill is coming to the hotel." Oh, oh! I ran up and got my camera. He let me take a picture of him. If I'd known he was going to be president I would have made him take a picture with me, but I didn't know. [laughing]

DUNHAM: And I think your--did you also go to DC and did you speak before Congress?

OTTO: To where?

DUNHAM: Did you go to Washington, DC recently and speak there? Or who did you--

OTTO: I've been there twice.

DUNHAM: And who did you speak before there? Did you speak before Congress?

OTTO: No, no.

DUNHAM: No, oh okay, okay.

OTTO: No, the veterans, the veterans invited us.

DUNHAM: Oh great, okay, yeah.

OTTO: Yeah, and I had to make a speech. I wrote a speech and I made a speech the first time. They liked--it was all about the veterans, you know. They all seemed to like it, so they invited me again this time. And I always have to sit down and be interviewed by people, and the last time it was with two little veterans--and they had a lot to say.

DUNHAM: Well, are there any good questions they asked you those days, or the six to nine-year-olds asked that I haven't asked today that you'd like to--?

OTTO: You're sixty-nine?

DUNHAM: No. The children. Are there any good questions the kids asked?

OTTO: Oh, the children. Oh, the six to nine--oh yeah. They were just so cute.

DUNHAM: Sometimes kids have the best questions.

OTTO: They were just adorable. So finally we had to get ready to go and the little girl, she said, "Are you going?" I said, "Well, yes sweetie, we have to go." "Well, we're going to miss you." Didn't even know us. They were just 01:39:00adorable. But they had the machines there for the riveting. And I explained to them and I explained to them about the rivet--there was rivet guns there and different things that I was able to explain to them how they worked.

DUNHAM: That's great.

OTTO: And they were--and then school teachers came to Long Beach from all over. So two weeks in a row I went to the Rosie the Riveter Park and they interviewed me there.

DUNHAM: Up in Richmond?

OTTO: No, no, here.

DUNHAM: Oh, the one down here, okay.

OTTO: They came here, in the Rosie the Riveter Park here. And they--

DUNHAM: Have you been involved with that park in--?

OTTO: Oh yeah, I was there when they first--she was a councilwoman, but she ran for mayor and lost. She didn't gain--so she's the one that opened it--{Gerrie Schipske}, and I was there when she opened the park, when they first opened it, 01:40:00and I've been there a few times in different ceremonies they had with the military coming out there.

DUNHAM: Right, okay.

OTTO: Three guys came from Texas and they're writing a story about me to put in the military magazines or whatever, and they went--they just loved that park! They thought it was wonderful. It really is.

DUNHAM: Yeah, we went a few years ago.

OTTO: It has a lot of information on the street as you walk over it.

DUNHAM: Yeah, and I think there's an audio tour too.

OTTO: Yeah, it's really a nice park.

DUNHAM: Great! Well, did you think of that other thing? Or if not, that's okay. We can--we're going to type--

OTTO: You know when you try to think of something. It's so hard.

DUNHAM: That's--I know. Well, we're going to type up the transcript and send it to you, so if you think of anything else you'd like to add then you could do that. But I think if there's nothing else we'll close today.

OTTO: Okay.

DUNHAM: This has been a terrific--

OTTO: I think I said enough! [laughing]

DUNHAM: Well, I'm sure there's a lot more you could share, but it has been very 01:41:00inspirational and maybe I'll take a couple shots of some of your items you have framed and awards.

OTTO: Okay.

DUNHAM: And if you have any photos--but we'll pause there. Thank you so much.

[End of Interview]