Roy Hirabayashi | Interview 2 | February 25, 2022

FARRELL: Okay, this is Shanna Farrell back with Roy Hirabayashi on Friday, February 25, 2022. This is an interview for the Japanese American Intergenerational Narratives Project, this is our second session, and we are talking over Zoon. Roy, welcome back. When we left off last time, we were talking a bit about your time at San Jose State, and you were in school from 1969 to 1973. I think when we had first talked, you mentioned that you fell love with the community there, and you never left. I'm wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what it was that you liked about the community?

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, sure. For me growing up, as I've 00:01:00mentioned, growing up in Oakland, the Japanese community is really spread out all over the place and there was no real physical, I guess what we could consider, Japantown, in Oakland at the time. There was the church and the Eden Township Cultural Center, whereas when I came to San Jose Japantown, I saw it; that's where there were stores and different things, and there was just a physical area, a geographic area where a lot of the Japanese community lived. The major church is the Buddhist temple and the largest Japanese American Methodist Church was there and just different services and things. That was an experience I never had growing up or never saw before and realizing that was something that was missing in my life, it was really 00:02:00 important.

But at that same time in looking at what Japantown was, it was a very sleepy Japantown basically. I tell this story where I felt at that time where at seven o'clock at night, I could walk down the main street there, Jackson Street in the middle of the block with a blindfold on and not worry about getting hit by a car at all. That's how slow everything was in the evening there. During the daytime, there actually was things happening, but it was not a very active community in that sense. It wasn't like what I experienced for San Francisco Japantown, which is really kind of a touristy type of atmosphere there. It was realizing that the San Jose Japantown really is a place where people come, the community comes too, and it's not really for tourists, but it's for the local folks just to come. They will come for the restaurants, they'll come for the churches, they'll come to the grocery stores that were 00:03:00there and the manju shop, the tofu, so those are the things they came into Japantown for.

During the week, it was just different activities. Weekends, Sundays was really the bigger day in Japantown because that's when the churches were active, people were coming to the services and there was a lot of different activity going around the churches at that time. I just came to kind of fall in love with that idea that this is something that's really precious. It's so different than the other Japantowns I've seen in LA or in San Francisco. Physically, it just looked like I was thrown back fifty years basically because it physically hasn't changed much as far as the buildings and everything, and there was no major corporate type of entities involved or storefronts and things like this involved in the community. It was very all local family 00:04:00operations, owning the property, running the businesses, and just supporting what Japantown was all about.

And then getting to know the people once I was able to start getting involved, just the storeowners, the active people in the community within the churches and things, realizing they all were there because they just had a shared compassion and passion for really just wanting to keep Japantown alive within their perspective of what that meant. I just felt that that was something so important also that I would like to try to be part of basically. Such a long answer.

FARRELL: No, that's great, that's great. At that period of time, what was the breakdown of different ages you would see of the people who were spending time there? Was it many generations or they tended to be older or 00:05:00 younger?

HIRABAYASHI: There was a group of students from San Jose State that were involved with Asian American Studies and that's how I got involved with Japantown. We were looking for how we could engage with the community, and so what we realized was the one population of folks that seem to be there and a little bit abandoned in a way, were the seniors, Issei, the first-generation Japanese. Those were the people we decided that was our target audience initially. The students, we formed an organization, and we'd started to talk about, well, what can we do, how can we help the seniors in our community here, what's important for them, what are they missing, and what is it that we could do to aid them in any way.

A lot of the Issei at that time, they still were pretty much Japanese speaking. They understood perhaps English, 00:06:00but they were primary Japanese speaking, and naturally much, much older. Some really didn't even have family or very limited family support, and a lot of single men in the community. They would just be hanging out on the corners, on the streets, and in front of different stores where there were benches and things. We just got to start to talking with folks and then wanting to understand their stores, where did they come from, where were they at during the war, which camp were they put into, and what was their experiences during that time. Because we were all young Sansei or Asian Americans at the time, so we were very curious. We wanted to fill the historical gap that we didn't know about, and just trying to find these seniors, the elders who would be willing to share that story, not all of them did or to a limited 00:07:00extent. Naturally, they didn't know who we were, they didn't quite trust at first and those kind of things, so it took a while just to get to know them. As we would walk around or come into Japantown and support the businesses too, we would say hello and just try to hang out with them too if they'll let us. Also, again, getting to know some of the businessowners who pretty much knew everybody, so that was very helpful too.

FARRELL: Yeah, I was going to ask if some of the elders were open to sharing some of those stories or if they were a little reluctant? For the people who would open up, what were some of the things that you learned from them?

HIRABAYASHI: It was just more why did they come to America, we're asking those questions, and then where was their family. Actually during the whole of internment process 00:08:00or time, what was that like for them and why or how did they come back to San Jose, what brought them back to San Jose. A lot of them were involved with the agricultural business or industry was within San Jose, and that was one of the main reasons that they even came to the area. As I think I mentioned before, San Jose was predominantly an agricultural area for the Japanese to come and settle here. That was their big thing that they came for or got involved with and so a lot of them were farmers. The ones that we're meeting that were just a little bit isolated were those who were basically working for other families or other people. They didn't really get into the opportunity of owning their own property, own farm, or things like this. I guess we felt they were the more targeted 00:09:00audience that needed or population that really needed the help versus those families who were a little bit more successful.

FARRELL: During those conversations with them, were you able to get a sense of what their needs were, what things they needed the most, how you could support them?

HIRABAYASHI: Well, we decided just to be simple. We thought we were trying to create recreational activities for them, something that they could just enjoy themselves doing something. We just started out just having -- whether it's just playing cards with them or checkers or things like this, just different activities that we could actually do within Japantown and then eventually just trying to plan like afternoon trips for them where we would actually gather some of them and go to a park or something that they didn't have a chance to go to or things like this. Eventually starting to have a larger kind of community 00:10:00gatherings or a picnic or something just to get other organizations or people involved with trying to support the activities.

Out of all these things, the organization Yu-Ai Kai, the senior services evolved, which is now still an important part of our community, and that provides lunch services and all the social services now for the seniors.

HIRABAYASHI: At this period of time, were you living close to Japantown or were you living closer to campus?

HIRABAYASHI: When I first started, I was living more towards campus area and then I decided, and a group of us decided, to find a place and live in the Japantown area, so a few of us started to find apartments in the area to live in Japantown. My freshman year definitely I was on campus during that time and then especially the sophomore year, I 00:11:00was more that way. After that, I decided to move into Japantown with some friends, so from that point, I was pretty much in the Japantown area. That's about 1971 I started to move and live in the Japantown area.

FARRELL: Okay, okay. We'll talk a little bit more about the community activism in a few minutes, but one thing we didn't talk about last time was the music you continued with and the scholarship when you were at San Jose State. You had gotten a call from the music director who wanted you to play the horn in the marching band. Can you tell me a little bit about that experience, playing in the marching band and the scholarship?

HIRABAYASHI: Right, sure. As I mentioned, I really wanted to do music but decided to put it 00:12:00aside. When I arrived down at San Jose State, I have no idea how they even tracked me down, but one of the band directors called me and said they were trying to restart their marching band. They wanted to actually do basically an all-horn and percussion ensemble, and so it wasn't going to be your typical marching band. My musical background up to that point was more in the classical sense, so again, I decided that was not really something I was interested in doing. But then he said, "Well, we'll offer you a semester scholarship," which was I believed at that time seventy dollars and to me that was a lot of money; it basically paid the tuition for that semester. Looking back when I tell younger folks now that was my semester scholarship, they'll say, "You 00:13:00mean for one class or one unit or what was that?" It's just the scale is so different now. But it was very important for me because I didn't come from a real wealthy family, so I was trying to figure out and do my best in whatever opportunities that were there to make my own money. I figured I need to do it. Naturally, my parents would love the idea that it's a scholarship so that even though it wasn't a lot of money. I jumped at it basically saying, "Yeah, okay, I'll do this."

When I joined the band and when I got into the marching band thing, it was a brand-new experience for me musically. It's very military style of regiment and things and discovering what they're putting together was really on that level of how 00:14:00they instruct and train and the discipline that's required. It was so different than being in an orchestra or a concert band or a jazz band that I was involved with before.

The other thing I realized was that the other students they were bringing into the band, this marching band, a lot of them were involved in a drum-and-bugle-corps scene. San Jose and Santa Clara has a really big drum and bugle corps and you know the Santa Clara Vanguards, which I was not really totally aware of either. Drum and bugle corps is this whole culture of music and entity on its own. They're all great musicians, that's one thing. You wonder, well, drum and bugle corps, yeah, but these guys, they were all amazing musicians, but they were also crazy as far as so dedicated to this marching band thing. 00:15:00They just really got into that part of it, and so it was just a really different kind of learning experience of discipline and also teamwork I guess you could say because everyone has to be totally in sync and just learning that whole process and what that meant, and the amount time and effort it took to really coordinate all of that. Most of the other folks actually understood what that was and how to do it. I was learning from scratch, so I was trying to figure it all out, and so I was getting yelled at a lot because I had problems marching, staying in line with them. It was only for one semester, the marching band is basically your football season, but within that short time span, I just learned so much about how music could be looked at in a different 00:16:00way in that for me to be so negative about thinking, well, it's a different form so maybe they're not that great. But learning that these are amazing musicians that on aside, they'd just outplaying me all the time basically. I learned a lot musically just from that experience basically.

FARRELL: Did you enjoy the structure?

HIRABAYASHI: At first no, but I think after the fact, I guess, I just realized there's a lot there to learn and understand and what that means in order to keep an ensemble together and what kind of rules and things need to be in place in order to keep a group functioning in that way. I didn't enjoy naturally the real hard-core discipline. I mean there was one time where we weren't doing that well and was starting to 00:17:00rain, and they had the entire band out on the field. The conductor had said, "Stand at attention" and so we all just stood there and it just started to pour. He left and we couldn't leave, we're just standing in the rain in attention for I felt, to me, like an hour. Probably it was only like twenty minutes but no one moved, no one moved, and I was just wondering, is someone going to move first, what would happen if I move first, and what does that mean. That was the discipline of the band and what that meant and the dedication of the band that they were willing to follow this conductor and do exactly what he said to that extent. In music, in orchestra, you followed the conductor, but there's a different kind of discipline. In orchestra you get yelled at if you played the wrong note, but you're not going to be standing in the rain in attention. It's just a whole different kind of concept of what that meant to be 00:18:00 conducting.

FARRELL: Yeah, and the types of performance are different too.

HIRABAYASHI: Yes.

FARRELL: Yeah. I do want to talk a little bit about what led you to get involved with taiko drumming. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that that started around 1971 when you started to get involved a little bit more with community activism, and it sounds like this is also when you have started to live in Japantown. From what I understand, the local Buddhist temple was looking for someone to help with the youth programs?

HIRABAYASHI: Correct.

FARRELL: So you were working with some of the different churches. Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that led into your early foray into taiko drumming?

HIRABAYASHI: Right. After getting into the Japantown area, we were starting to work with the temple with different activities and different community groups. At that time early on, there was young new 00:19:00minister that came to the Buddhist temple, Rev. Hiroshi Abiko and so we got to know him because he was brand-new. He was young and so energetic and wanted to get his help and support and just be in touch with him. As I got to know him, he was really talking about how can we get more of the youth involved in different things within the temple, just to get them back involved and doing things.

What had happened I guess the Buddhist temple, the churches, they operate and are organized in a what they called districts of their churches. San Jose at that time was in what they called the coast district, which included Mountain View, San Jose, Morgan Hill, Gilroy, Monterey, and Salinas. Actually, overall 00:20:00nationally there was a talk about trying to do a national youth directorship program and they wanted for each district to hire on a part-time youth coordinator to help activate that. When that program was being initiated, the reverend suggested to me, "Maybe you should look at this thing to apply for it." I thought, wow, I'm really into supporting the church to the help organize and bring folks, younger folks back into the temple. I thought would be a great, great opportunity to do what I felt was my way of community organizing within the church.

So I did apply and I got the job. The reverend says, "Well, one activity that this group in Los Angeles is doing is they started a taiko group." Again, I knew what taiko was just through the festival growing up, but I never played before. He suggested 00:21:00we get in touch with them, and what he knew, the minister, the reverend there, and that we should meet with them and just learn more about how they're doing and what that meant. We did that and decided that we would try to start a group in San Jose. The Reverend Abiko was starting to put this idea out to us in about 1972 or so and I knew that in order to do that, the two of us to be difficult and then also after learning that you need to really buy some materials to build drums, and there's a way to do that, but still it would be costly to do that. I needed to find a partner or someone else to help fundraise and so I did find another friend, Dean Miyakusu who was also involved with the temple, but he was a great organizer too.

The two of us along with the reverend decided to move forward to try to do something. 00:22:00We started really planning in the early part of 1973 and in the summer of the '73, we threw a fundraiser to raise some money to do that and we were successful. At that time, we thought it was a lot of money. I think we earned maybe a little over a thousand dollars or something, but it was enough for what we wanted to do, we felt, to getting things started. We immediately contacted the Reverend Mas Kodani at the Senshin Buddhist Temple in Los Angeles who had started the Kinnara Taiko group to ask him for his help and assistance. We went down to LA and met with him, he showed us how they build their drums and where they bought materials, and just bought a bunch of stuff and brought it back to San Jose and immediately started to make our own drums. This was, too, with the idea that we wanted to start this youth group at the temple.

This was 00:23:00happening in July and August of '73, and by September when the Sunday school classes were starting back up, we started to get the youth involved and just letting them know, "This is an activity we'd like to the offer and if anyone's interested, please just join in." It was an after church, after-service activity, so we are able to gain some younger folks, mainly junior high school and high school kids to come in and start participating with us. We were starting to do that every Sunday to create that, so that's how the group got started.

Reverend Abiko was really key for us because Dean and I really never played taiko before. Dean wasn't really that much of a musician, but he was really interested in doing it. I probably had the most musical background as far as music was concerned with the three of us, but naturally, the reverend had the cultural content and he had 00:24:00lived in Japan and he knew what taiko was from there and also within the concept of the temple what that might mean. The three of us were great partners.

FARRELL: Yeah, and I'm wondering because I realized that we hadn't really talked about taiko and what it means and the meaning of it and what makes it different. Could you tell me a little bit about that for people who might listen or read this interview later who might not know?

HIRABAYASHI: Oh sure, okay. Taiko is basically the word for the Japanese drum. It's a generic word for all the Japanese drums, and when you start to look at what that means, there's many different drums and different shapes and sizes, but the word taiko just literally means Japanese drum. Actually, that word wadaiko is the correct term for the Japanese drum. We just decided to use 00:25:00taiko within that concept to really try to create an ensemble of playing together just using the drums. Historically for taiko in Japan, it was connected to the temple because if you would go to most temples, you would see a drum sitting in the altar area and it was used to accompany the chanting and the services and the celebration. Naturally during Obon, the summer festival, the taiko just accompanying the dancing and the singing that was going on.

But in Japan, classically it was used in the more classical forms and different art forms, the naturally Kabuki theater or the Noh theater, you hear the drum being used within the ensemble, or even the more older art form, the gagaku music, the Japanese court music, the taiko, the drum is part of that. Ensemble drumming, the idea is just taiko itself playing together without the other instruments. Actually even in Japan, it's relatively new, 00:26:00new meaning it didn't start till about 1951 in Japan under the direction of Daihachi Oguchi from the Osuwa Daiko group and in the Nagano area. He is given credit for creating the concept and the idea of what we refer to as kumi-daiko, or ensemble drumming. Basically it's just using taiko as a group entity playing.

We approached it from that perspective that we wanted to create doing taiko in that way. The first group to start here in the United States was the San Francisco Taiko Dojo under Seiichi Tanaka and he started in 1968 in San Francisco. The reason he started is he's an immigrant from Japan, and when he came to the San Francisco area, he realized in the festivals -- mainly the Cherry Blossom Festival -- there was no sound of the taiko being played. He said, "In Japan, you would always hear the drum, the taiko being played, but we don't have that." He wanted to start that and create 00:27:00that sound and that experience of taiko in the festival.

About the same time though in Los Angeles was a group of folks under the direction of a Reverend Mas Kodani at the Senshin Buddhist Temple. They were starting to create a temple group there through their Obon things. San Francisco taiko they say it did start in 1968 in Senshin. The Kinnara Taiko group started in 1969. I think actually there was a lot of overlap in time there. But anyway, these two groups basically started at the same time, real different formats and entities. Kinnara was basically out of the temple and based in the Buddhist philosophy and the San Francisco Taiko was really coming from the festival of drumming coming from Japan.

When we wanted to start taiko, we were following what Kinnara was doing because Kinnara was the 00:28:00group in Los Angeles. Reverend Mas and the folks there figured out you could take a wine barrel, put a cowhide on it, and that could be created as a Japanese taiko. Whereas the San Francisco taiko, in order to start, they had to buy their drums from Japan, which is very expensive. A traditional drum from Japan is actually a single piece of wood, a tree trunk that's hollowed out in order to create that drum and so we didn't have those kind of resources, money, or skill set to do that. Kinnara design was a critical piece for how taiko grew here in North America, or outside of Japan basically, because we are able to take that concept and start designing and making our own drums here.

FARRELL: Yeah, I'm really curious to hear more about how you were approaching making your own drum and especially because you're new to drumming, there's probably a lot that you were learning at this period of time. Can you tell me 00:29:00about and how you approached making drums especially thinking about how in Japan? It's a hollowed-out tree trunk, so it's a single piece of wood compared to a wine barrel, which is a few.

HIRABAYASHI: Right. Well, the group Kinnara when they first started, basically they literally just took a wine barrel with the band -- the metal band still on it -- and cut off the end and then stretched the hide on one end to begin with. They didn't even have hides on both sides of that barrel, their earlier drums, which was real different naturally than the Japanese drum. When we took that idea, we started to look at and realizing seeing what a real taiko from Japan looks like, the shape and how it's built, we were in San Jose, trying to figure out how can we duplicate the drum from Japan but using a wine barrel here in US. Basically, our main thing we wanted to try to do was build a 00:30:00drum or reinforce it enough so that we could take the metal bands off of it because naturally a barrel when you take those bands off, it collapses, [laughs] it just falls apart.

We had experimented on that, and Kinnara, their first drums actually were not even oak barrels. I think they were even pine or other hardwood type of thing. We discovered this one, the French oak wine barrel, which was being used more in the wineries up in Northern California. It was a much heavier, thicker wood, a stronger wood naturally being oak. Also French oak is not quite as dense as American oak, so it was real similar to the Japanese wood that they would use in Japan to make a drum. Also, the way they were making those French oak wine barrels, it was a little bit more in the shape of what a real Japanese drum would look like without having to 00:31:00reconfigure it that much.

Naturally, the challenge was, well, how do we still take the bands off without the barrel falling apart? We are able to come up with the idea that we would try to figure out this reinforcement rim that we had to insert on the ends of the drum. It was a solid piece of wood basically that we had to cut out and insert and then we pinned or dowelled each of the staves into this solid piece insert and then we cut the middle insert out to make it hollow in that way. It sounds a little complicated. I could send you a diagram, too, if it's simpler.

FARRELL: It's really interesting, and I've actually been to a cooperage before, so I've seen those barrel be assembled. I actually am following everything you're saying because I was like, yeah, how do you get that to stay together without the band? That's really interesting.

HIRABAYASHI: 00:32:00Right. It was a lot of experimentation to do that, and naturally it took a lot of work. We had to do a lot of sanding and finishing work on the outside even to make it look more even. But doing those inserts, we found out that was a great way to stabilize the barrel in most cases to keep it together, so we could take the bands off. Early on, we actually didn't even take the barrel apart or glue the staves; we basically were just using how it was. Later, we would actually take the barrel apart and reglue it and put it back together and then do this insert and pin it, so it was even a stronger barrel at that point.

FARRELL: Yeah, and some of those barrels too aren't even glued together, it's just pressure.

HIRABAYASHI: Right, in most cases, they are just pressure.

FARRELL: Yeah, yeah. 00:33:00How did all of that affect the sound of the drum?

HIRABAYASHI: Right, and so we assumed that what we were was going to be much different than a real drum. We knew there were so many other variables. We knew a barrel type of drum was going to resonate versus a single piece of wood, but we also knew that the skins or the hides that we're able to use or getting and how we're doing that whole process was still a mystery to us in how they actually did it in Japan, the traditional taiko makers in Japan, how did they treat that skin, how did they get it to be so even in thickness and whatever, all that kind of stuff. We assumed or just knew that our sound because of the skin, the barrel itself was going to resonate and sound different. But for us, the general sound of the drum was close enough to what we felt a taiko would be 00:34:00like. In most cases -- I don't want to say it's equivalent to a real Japanese drum -- but we came very close. We were able to, over time, not only what we were in San Jose or other but other taiko makers started to -- other groups and the taiko makers in the US who were using that same concept really enhanced that process, and people are doing amazing work now with that. Kinnara started the idea, we enhanced it, and other folks just took it to another craftsmanship level, which is I guess an art form, how it develops right.

FARRELL: Definitely.

HIRABAYASHI: We were proud we're there early on in that process.

FARRELL: It's an instrumental part of that process to figure out how to make that work. Were you buying barrels from wine country or using barrels 00:35:00that couldn't be used for aging wine anymore?

HIRABAYASHI: Early on at the very beginning, we were buying wine barrels -- just the smaller ones -- and there were times actually we were scrouging because we didn't have a lot of money. Whenever we saw just a barrel sitting on the side of the road, we just asked, "Are you using that?" And so, "No, we're going to throw it away," "Okay, we'll take it." Some were wine, we found some whiskey barrels, which are even more difficult to work with. They're oak barrels, whiskey barrels are usually oak, but they're also burnt on inside or charred and so scraping that out, and naturally if it's an old barrel it's still very strong smelling, the whiskey or whatever, it was a big task in order to clean those barrels out to make it work. They weren't quite the right size or shape-wise either, 00:36:00but we felt, well, a free barrel is a free barrel, we'll do what we can do to make it work for us. We experimented a lot with everything we could find.

FARRELL: Yes, yeah, I can also imagine the char because American whiskey barrels by law have to be charred, so I can imagine that that would also affect the sound too.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, because it's not even and some places were as more charred than others. We were trying to scrape that out, but that actually worked to an advantage because we realized the Japanese taiko is not smooth inside. They actually will, on purpose, put the different indents on it, so the sound will bounce around a little bit more versus just back and forth. That's like being in a cement room, right, where the sound would just bounce back and forth. If you start putting in barrels, it would start going different angles, kind of soften the sound in a different 00:37:00way. Perhaps, in a way, it was okay, but still that was a huge process.

FARRELL: Yeah that's really interesting. I'm also curious about how you learned how to play? You hadn't played drums really before this. Can you tell me about how you approached learning?

HIRABAYASHI: Right, so musically even what to play -- I mean what music do we play? When we first started, the people, students under the Reverend Abiko, he was just showing us rhythm patterns that he knew from Japan, so it was very simple and just very repetitive. When you listen to actually Japanese folk music, it's very repetitive anyway, so this is what we were doing. But what happened with the group at the temple is that once we started going at that, I knew there were 00:38:00students or other friends who were at San Jose State and within the community other musicians that might be interested in doing this, so I started inviting other folks in to join in and come take a look. When that happened actually, they were pretty good musicians just locally, and they just took over basically. Unfortunately, all the junior high school and high school kids just stopped coming because they were just overwhelmed with what was going on.

For us at that time musically, we were just freeform jamming, just there was no form, there was no set patterns in a way. We just were doing whatever we felt, whatever happened, happened. Anyone and everyone could come and join in, so there was no limitations of who could participate and that's how we were just 00:39:00playing. After we started and this class has been doing things since '73 fall, by February, March of the next year in '74, it was a different group of people. The reverend said, "Well, we should play at Obon," which was in July of '74. We said, "Well, we really don't know what to play, but we will just play this one song that we knew." So that's what we did. We went out there and just played this one song, had a great time. After we were supposed to play, there was other activities going on naturally, but then after all that, we came back on and started playing again, and that went on for, I don't know, a long time, so people were not very happy that we were just doing this [laughs] after the fact. I'm sure if you didn't know what it was and you just 00:40:00heard, it was just like a bunch of guys just playing on drums. They wouldn't know the difference if it was African congas or whatever. But we were just having a great time and that whole experience for us to be playing with that kind of energy. There was a structure sort of, but that was really playing with abandonment. There was no ego involved, we're just all having a great time and fun, and that's what really launched us off to want to do something.

FARRELL: Yeah, and I'm wondering too -- you had mentioned different rhythm patterns, and I'm thinking about eastern versus western music, circular versus linear. Is that something that you started to explore a little bit -- the differences -- or did that come later?

HIRABAYASHI: No, we did start to explore early on, and since most of 00:41:00the friends I was inviting in to play had some kind of musical experience -- they were coming from more of the jazz, Latin, Afro-Cuban background -- we had some great folk -- writers and players -- so they were coming in with polyrhythms, different time signatures, and whatever type of stuff, just doing different things very early, which was very different. We didn't realize at the time, but it was very different from what they do or what taiko sounded like in Japan as I mentioned, which can be very repetitive in most cases. That, to me, was what created the San Jose taiko sound because we were creating what we felt, without knowing, but just creating our own sound using what we called the Japanese drum. Knowing that this barrel with a cowhide that we found 00:42:00locally was not a real Japanese drum, and the music that we're doing comes from roots of Afro-Cuban, jazz, Latin, whatever rhythm patterns and also using other instruments -- our version what we called the Japanese taiko like a cowbell, a shekere, or different things was not Japanese taiko. We felt we were establishing pretty much early on that we're, in Asian American sound, using what we've called the Japanese drum, the taiko, our version.

FARRELL: Yeah. I can't remember if this was maybe in our pre-interview or our last interview, but you had mentioned that you were thinking that this could be the voice for Asian Americans. I think that that's a unique identity in your group versus whether that's tied to the church or tied to tradition or something like that. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit 00:43:00more about how you thought this could be the voice?

HIRABAYASHI: Right, and growing up musically, I didn't listen to Japanese music even though at times actually my parents would play different Japanese folk songs and different things. Naturally we would hear it at the Obons and things like this, but that was not my go-to thing or turn on as for playing and that we're listening to. Naturally, getting into college and stuff and as young Asians or Japanese Americans that when we would have parties or whatever, the music we listened to was not Japanese music either. Our influence or my influence in growing up was naturally what we heard in the Bay Area, at least for me. The Bay Area just has every opportunity of music you could ever want to hear, it's just all here, and so that was just a big 00:44:00advantage for us in doing that. But realizing when we go to different parties, we're getting into the R & B and the Latin soul or whatever stuff, but we're not doing the Asian or Japanese American type of stuff, so what is that identity for us. Again, realizing that when taiko started and people started to get interested and wanting to actually listen to it and follow it, to me, it really became that voice for the community and knowing that we could use the instrument to really help bring people together.

As San Jose Taiko, we started to develop a group and doing different events. We knew we could be that calling voice and so it was not an issue for us. Many times, okay, there was an 00:45:00event, and the organizers says, "Well, can you be the ones to start out, be the first ones to play just to bring people together?" Sure, that's what we could do, that's our best thing and so it was that calling voice that was really important. It wasn't so much that we wanted to be the entertainment, so to speak, but we wanted to bring people together to build the community basically.

FARRELL: Yeah, and I think what you're saying too is emblematic of it doesn't have to be just one thing. Like the Asian American community, it's certainly not just one thing, it's many things, and also the influence of what's around you too. It sounds like there's a direct correlation with your taiko group with that kind of idea, that it's many things.

HIRABAYASHI: Right.

FARRELL: I don't know if I'm putting words in your mouth, but --

HIRABAYASHI: No, no that's very true, yes.

FARRELL: Okay, and in those early days, how often were you in touch with LA, especially 00:46:00since you went to that seminar before you got the San Jose group off the ground?

HIRABAYASHI: Well, because of Reverend Abiko's relationship to the temple or the Reverend Mas in the other temples, through him, we were able to stay in touch quite a bit. Naturally you're getting to know the other members of Kinnara group who are lifetime friends that we've known for over fifty years now. They've always been very supportive, very helpful, and we've always tried to stay in touch with different things.

The Kinnara group, I just want to give them credit for the fact that that's a Buddhist taiko group, and in developing taiko here in North America, I feel they don't get the credit that they deserve for really helping to popularize taiko in North America. It started naturally through the temples of Japanese-American communities, but when you look at the roots of how taiko groups 00:47:00started -- the first twenty or so -- many of them started because of the temple, which means because of what Kinnara was doing. That's across the country, not only in California and that's really an important thing. I feel for San Francisco taiko, he developed a style that was a festival drumming and a much different kind of style and discipline, but then again, what San Jose taiko was doing or what we were doing was coming, again, from that little bit more musical, Asian American realm. We really emphasized creating the music, the sound, and developing that, and composing, and how to really present that on the stage was our interest.

FARRELL: I'm thinking about how you started to recruit more people because you mentioned when you first started, by the next year, it was a different group of people. How did you go 00:48:00about spreading the word, getting people involved, getting people excited?

HIRABAYASHI: It wasn't like we were trying to get hundreds of people involved, we were just trying to get a group of folks, and it was all word-of-mouth. At that time, I think like myself, many of the other Asian Americans, younger Asians of my peer group, we're all curious, what is my identity, what can I do that connects me to who I am? The idea of the taiko was part of that, so it really drew a lot of different people. Not everyone that came stayed. The people came and went in different ways, but we did have this real open-door policy, letting anyone come and play, whatever, and participate for as long or as little as they wanted. We didn't really have that kind of structure at all to 00:49:00regulate things if you want to stay for the group. I feel that because of that, there was a lot of people who did just come and go and were just interested, and out of that naturally, there was a core group who really were interested, and became the core group for us.

FARRELL: Yeah, it's interesting to hear you talk about that because I know with some other groups in different parts of the Bay Area, the commitment level they require -- some places require that you have to attend "this" many practices before a performance or things like that. It sounds like there was a lot of flexibility in what you were doing because it's for the community.

HIRABAYASHI: Right. Oh well, definitely, that's how we started out. It's much different now naturally for at least San Jose taiko. There's other community groups who are probably a little bit loser in that format than how we were originally. But 00:50:00for San Jose taiko, it has naturally changed in many different ways, but that was the start.

FARRELL: Yeah, can you tell me a little bit about how that's developed over time?

HIRABAYASHI: Well, we started to realize, again, we could be a real strong Asian American musical voice so with that, then what did it mean for us to be that identity? Starting to also learn about what groups were existing coming from Japan and what they're doing and how they're performing. There were a couple of major groups that were starting to tour through the US in the mid-70s or so -- about '75, '76, '77 -- one group in particular, this group called Ondekoza, from Japan. A professional ensemble from Japan, they're just very disciplined, amazing musicianship, and things, using 00:51:00taiko, the Japanese dance and other instruments and things, but predominantly just the taiko was a focus. We were able to befriend the company and just learn more about how they operate and what that meant, and they were a collective of individuals, a commune so to speak. They live together on the island of Sado, Japan and were creating their own musical form, so they were all basically there, that was their livelihood, how they were doing things. We realized we couldn't create that same atmosphere in San Jose, but even that we couldn't achieve their level of proficiency or playing. But at the same time musically, we felt that we still had a sound that was equal or could be equal to what they're offering, but our own sound at the same time.

We had 00:52:00started as a group to think about we could still be this festival group, we're just out in the streets every summer playing at the different community festivals, or we could start to really, really practice, so to speak, all right, and really develop our skills and work towards how we could actually develop into a more ensemble that could be doing concerts or performing in that way. I had been working with some other nonprofits, so realizing in order to do that, we need to incorporate the group as a nonprofit and build the infrastructure of an organization in that way and then see how we could get funding grants to start helping with some of the things we want to do, to buy more equipment or whatever it took. Group-wise, what did it take to organize practices better? We needed to practice more and find a more 00:53:00permanent place because we're at the temple, but that was getting difficult. We actually had to leave the temple because they couldn't facilitate or accommodate all the practice time that we wanted. They had events and things or like a family service or a funeral or whatever, then we would be canceled out basically. We had to figure out and find our own alternative space to move on from there, and that's why we left the temple basically for one reason.

All of that was starting to happening in the later 1970s and the early 1980s and so I guess we're getting better, but at the same time, our members are still coming from the idea that we just like to play at the Obon, the street festivals, and that's where I just enjoyed doing it the best. When we started to do our own annual so-called 00:54:00concerts -- we have one concert a year -- people felt, wow, that's too much work, can we do that, it's just too intense for me. People were coming and going a little bit, but there was again a core group of people who really wanted to pursue that.

In the summer of 1982 the group Ondekoza had split up and a new group called Kodo was developed. In 1982, the new group Kodo, which was actually comprised of all the members from the former group on the Ondekoza was going to be launching their first US tour and so they contacted us. The leader of the group contacted me and said, "We're looking to launch a tour, but we would like to have some help, does anyone from San Jose taiko want to join and help us on this tour?" I said, "Wow," and I talked to PJ -- and actually we're married at the time -- and I said, "I really want to do this." 00:55:00I was working, at the time of this, I was able to get leave from my job, and I went to Japan to work with this group Kodo for about six months.

We toured the US for about six weeks -- I'll say almost six to eight weeks -- and it was a national tour for them. They went across the country, all the major universities, and then we went back to Japan and there was another about six, seven weeks there that we toured. I was able to tour with them there and I stayed with him a few months afterwards and to just practice with them and just be with them, so it was about almost six and a half months that I was with the company. It was just an amazing experience just to see how a group like that functioned, what it took to really be so disciplined, organization on stage, and traveling, and touring. I was their production and stage manager on the 00:56:00tour, so I learned a lot about that, the logistics of that.

When I came back home, "I said, I don't know if we could be a Kodo, but we could definitely do our best to try to be something like that here in the US. We would have to be naturally at a different scale, but I feel we have the talent and the music to do something." Other members of the group naturally weren't quite sure if that's what they wanted to do. Some members thought, wow, let's do it, but again, it was how do we build the infrastructure to do that? Are we going to all quit our jobs to do this musically? It wasn't going to be possible. It took a few years and some people were not as patient to hang in there because they were just wanting to do it as quick as possible, and others just didn't want to do it at all, so they left. But we are able to move it forward eventually and actually 00:57:00start touring and doing more of that. In 1989, I guess, we were able to actually sign on with a booking management company, and so from that point, that's when we started to get national recognition to start touring basically. It was a slow growth, but we had a management company who was willing to work with us, so that's how we just built our touring capacity of doing that.

FARRELL: When you went to Japan, where was the group based?

HIRABAYASHI: Sado Island.

FARRELL: Okay, oh right, you mentioned that, okay, okay.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, which is off to Niigata coast side, the Japan seaside.

FARRELL: Okay, and was that the first time you had been to Japan?

HIRABAYASHI: Yes, it was, it was the first time. For me, it was a real learning experience in many different ways. Sado is a very rural type of area, it's no real big 00:58:00city, and at that time, very few foreigners had gone, really lived there, or were in the area. For me for who I really didn't speak Japanese that well -- I mean I look Japanese naturally, but once I open my mouth, they knew -- who are you? That whole experience and realizing, ah, well you know, I am Japanese, but no, I'm not Japanese and so that whole identity was a culture shock of being a Japanese American in Japan. Again, the customs and the knowledge of what I knew or that I grew up was from what my parents knew, which was from basically coming from Meiji area or time of Japan. In the '80s it had already changed quite a bit and so even words that my parents had used with me that I would use with them, they would say, "Wow, you're like really from the 00:59:00country," or "That is so old-fashioned, where'd you learn that?" or "Why are you saying that?" Even just different, other customs, they didn't understand or were surprised that our family here in the US still celebrate New Year's to that extent, doing what we did for the food and celebration or the other events just because they didn't do that.

FARRELL: Yeah, that's interesting how things evolved there or differ regionally versus what you grew up within your family and preserved as part of their traditions. You had mentioned that you were married to PJ at this point when you were involved with the company. Was she involved with taiko at all?

HIRABAYASHI: Oh yeah. PJ went to UC Berkeley and after going to Cal, she decided she wanted to go to 01:00:00Japan too. We had met earlier before then and she was actually involved in some of the projects I was talking about working with seniors and things but mainly up in the East Bay, Berkeley area. But after graduating from Cal, she wanted to go to Japan and find her roots, so speak, and so she and two other friends just left and went to Japan for over a little over year. She lived there doing different things and then came back. She grew up in the Fremont area, maybe through high school and stuff, but her family, after when she was in college, moved to Los Angeles because her parents went down to help PJ's grandmother. When PJ returned from Japan, that's where here family was, her parents, so she went to LA and was down there.

I told her, "We're starting this taiko group and you might be interested at some point to come up." That was in the earlier part of 1973 or so, and then she said, "Well, I'm looking for a job and stuff." A friend of mine who was at San Jose State said, "There's this job opening with the city at San Jose planning department as interns. They're looking for minority women basically, if you know anybody." I wrote her a note saying, "Hey, there's this possible job opening. If you want, take a look at it," and so she applied. She got the internship, but we didn't realize that or she didn't realize too that this internship meant she really needed to be in the master's program at urban planning at San Jose State. This late August, almost September. We had started school already and so she realized I need to be in this master's 01:02:00program in order to do this job. We were able to get her in the master's program immediately through my friend there and so that's why she ended up getting her master's in urban planning, which she had no plans of doing, and then moved to San Jose and got into working at the planning department but was able to start playing taiko with us.

FARRELL: I can't remember if I asked you this before now, but how did you originally meet PJ?

HIRABAYASHI: Oh, okay. Well, we naturally both have our little bit different stories on that. But anyways, what it was is right after I graduated high school, again that story about going into engineering versus music, I'd said, "Maybe I should take a class during the summer session right after high school." I thought maybe a computer science class would be great. I went to Cal State 01:03:00Hayward -- oh, well, it was called Cal State Hayward at the time -- and I signed up for this computer class and PJ was in the class. She was attending Cal State Hayward and she was, at that time, a math major, so in her mind, she thought, well, learning about computers might be really useful too. We're both clueless about what was going on. It was a basic FORTRAN programming class where we had to use punch cards and whatever, so you would use like a whole box of cards just to do an addition problem of two plus two basically. Anyways, it was just learning that whole system and trying to do that and so that's how we first met, and we got to know each other within that summer basically.

And not knowing, my brother actually, my oldest brother, he had returned from the service and decided to go to Cal State Hayward to get his credential in teaching. He was up at Cal State 01:04:00Hayward too when, in the fall, I left for San Jose State. My brother was at Cal State, PJ was there, and that's when they started to work on doing the organizing within the East Bay on their senior project and so he got to know PJ also within that context.

FARRELL: What year did you get married in?

HIRABAYASHI: We got married in '75.

FARRELL: Okay, and then in the '80s is when you had traveled to Japan for the tour?

HIRABAYASHI: Right.

FARRELL: Okay, got it, okay, just trying to get a sense of the timeline.

HIRABAYASHI: Sure.

FARRELL: Makes sense. That's great that she was involved in taiko as well, so thank you for sharing all that. One thing I think we had discussed a little bit was that you would drum at some redress event, is that right?

HIRABAYASHI: Right.

FARRELL: Can you tell me a little bit about 01:05:00how you got involved in those and what some of the of the events were?

HIRABAYASHI: Right. Well San Jose early on quite a number years ago started the Day of Remembrance activities, event, which was usually held, if not on, around February nineteenth. In San Jose, the Japanese community, there was a group of folks here who created the Day of Remembrance pretty early on, and so when they first started it and we were doing taiko naturally, they wanted what naturally was called cultural entertainment. They knew we were doing taiko, so they always invited us in to come and perform at the Day of Remembrance and so we would always support that, to go there to do a short performance. But also part of the deal or event was they would do this procession in 01:06:00Japantown town to recognize and honor those who were in camps, at different internment camps, in the community that were in those different camps and also Japantown itself. Part of the event was this entire group or those attending would do a procession through Japantown and back into the temple where the jam or the event was being held.

During that process, as far as San Jose taiko, we would provide the musical cadence for the procession. We were always part of providing that musical context for that. It was something we've always wanted, so we always do support, and we just had it. It was just a virtual event but it was a DOR where San Jose taiko still is there to lend support by providing some video clippings of some of the 01:07:00music. We feel that's why it's been one of the other very important events for us to be supporting in the community here.

FARRELL: Yeah, and actually, were you referring to this past weekend, the 2022 Day of Remembrance?

HIRABAYASHI: Right.

FARRELL: Yeah, yeah, and that was about a week ago, a little less.

HIRABAYASHI: Right, yeah.

FARRELL: Yeah, so you've stayed involved in those then?

HIRABAYASHI: Yes. I think there's been only one that we -- I can't even remember why -- that we were not part of the DOR program over the years. I forget get what year, it's close to thirty or something, so it's quite a few.

FARRELL: When you were, during redress, playing at those events, were there a lot of people from the community who would attend or was it not as much a community thing and just a certain 01:08:00facet of people?

HIRABAYASHI: Initially, it was small, in my opinion, in a way. But the activists or those who were really involved in the community naturally would be there and be participating. Over the years actually, the Japanese community has really tried to connect and support other communities that are in distress or having their own challenges. The Muslim community naturally was being supported, the Latino community for the immigration issues and things like this. Over the past ten years especially, or especially since 9/11, the attendance for the DOR, or the Day of Remembrance, has really increased where before I think we were happy maybe if a hundred people come. Now it's like standing-room only. It's so amazing that so many people come out now to 01:09:00support, and it's not just the Japanese community, still naturally quite a few from the Japanese American community come, but just different folks from the larger communities coming out for this event too.

FARRELL: Yeah, it's interesting thinking about post-9/11 or even in a post-2016. Would you also play at events surrounding, like after 9/11, in support of the Muslim community? Or after 2016 with some of the immigration issues? Were you involved in any of that?

HIRABAYASHI: I guess if you're referring to rallies or protest marches and things, no, not exactly, but naturally, if any of those communities were doing events that they wanted to several multicultural presence of others -- and taiko is pretty well known -- we were being invited to a lot of those different things, the events or activities 01:10:00or festivals maybe that they were hosting themselves. So, yes, we would help and try support as many groups as possible.

FARRELL: Okay, that makes sense, and that also I think fits into some of the original vision of this is things that are around us too -- you're in participating in the community and that kind of thing. I lost my words there but yes. One quick question before I get there, is did your parents ever attend any of the taiko events you were participating in?

HIRABAYASHI: Because my parents lived up in the East Bay side, they didn't come down that often actually; other than our concerts when we started doing those later, that they would come to those events. But not so much for our community events or even Obon, things like this, they would not come down for that to 01:11:00hear, to watch, I guess, I don't know, for different reasons perhaps. For my mom especially, it took her quite a while to understand why we were doing taiko to the extent that we're involved with it. Just doing it while we're still working a job, naturally she said, "Okay, it's something you do for fun," but when we quit our jobs to do it -- that was our job -- it was difficult for her to understand what that meant and how are you going to live, that whole question, and not realizing what the impact was that we were trying to do.

My father unfortunately passed away quite early when he was fairly young, so he didn't get to see a lot of stuff that I was doing later 01:12:00on. But when I received the NEA, National Heritage Fellowship Award, my mom wasn't able to go to Washington to see that, but she was aware of what that meant. My two sisters actually went to see that whole celebration, so naturally, they came back, and we told her all about it and things. I gave her the booklet and everything, and she saw what was happening and showed her the video that was available and everything. I think in her own way, at that point, she was really understanding, okay, I get it now, probably. I don't regret that they never came to see us perform. They would come for, again, our concerts, our major shows and things. My dad wouldn't come all the 01:13:00time, but my mom, for her, it was a little bit hard for her to understand why we're doing it.

FARRELL: What was her reaction when you received the NEA Award?

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, she as very proud at that point, yes. She didn't realize that something like that could be achieved and what that meant, and she didn't understand how big of award that was really. But just the fact that I was being recognized in Washington, DC, basically for her was just, wow, okay. That piece alone for her was impressive.

FARRELL: Yeah. Did she start to understand at that point a little bit more about why you were doing this?

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, I think so, yes. She knew that when we started, there was very little taiko around and then 01:14:00she also knew that there were so many other groups. She would on occasion, in her own way, say, "Oh, there's this other group in El Cerrito now, do you know them?" I said, "Well, we helped them a little bit." She said, "Oh, okay." It's like, "Oh, what about this other group that's in Eden Township, do you know them?" "Oh yeah, we know them too." She's, "Oh, okay," so she was testing me -- are you for real, do you know all these people? [laughter]

FARRELL: That's funny. [laughter] And also too, she's paying attention, right?

HIRABAYASHI: Yes, yes. Yeah, I mean she would read the Japanese paper, and we'd be in the paper quite a bit, so she reads it. I didn't realize -- I guess I should really say this -- later on, she gave me this whole box of newspaper clippings from the Japanese papers and said, "Oh, you know, I should give these to you." There was a whole box of clippings that she had 01:15:00saved and so I knew that she was tracking us.

FARRELL: Yeah. The clippings were when you were featured in the newspaper?

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, San Jose taiko or just the group, yeah. They would all be cut out and just stuck in this box. I still have the box.

FARRELL: Oh, oh, that's really wonderful.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, I'm going to be passing it on to the Smithsonian. I don't know if I mentioned to you, the Smithsonian is going to be collecting archiving our documents.

FARRELL: No, I didn't know that, but that's fantastic.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah. We've been selected for them to come and collect from us at some point.

FARRELL: Oh, that's fantastic. Did you just find out about that or have you known for a while?

HIRABAYASHI: We've known it, actually. We knew about this before the pandemic, and they're planning to actually schedule to come, and they actually already made a site visit to evaluate whether or not we had enough for them to collect. They had a curator and one of 01:16:00their researchers come out and visit us, and so the paperwork and everything, from what I understand, has been done and then the pandemic hit, so everything stopped on that end. They're behind on their collection on that end unfortunately because of all that.

FARRELL: Yeah, yeah. Oh, but that's really exciting. I'm really glad to hear that that's going to be archived somewhere, especially at the Smithsonian. Do you remember when you found out that you were first nominated and then the recipient of the NEA Award?

HIRABAYASHI: Yes. Well, there was different people that's telling us all the time that you should put your name in for the nomination and things. Seiichi Tanaka had received the award actually earlier before us and so we were thinking, well, he's already received it. Look, they're not going to honor more than one taiko person, but other folks said, "Well, you should really consider it." I had a 01:17:00friend who was working in San Jose City Hall and so she was willing to help submit the application for us, so she helped push us to do that. Naturally, we had to help provide a lot of materials for her and things, but we were able to gain quite a few different people to write letters for us and to actually submit that application. It wasn't like we didn't know this going in, we were totally aware, but we thought, this is going to be a long shot.

But when were awarded, I do remember I got a call from the director of folk and traditional arts at NEA who I had met before, so I kind of knew him. He said, "Oh, just want to let you know, I'm sure you're aware that you've been nominated, and now your application went in and want to let you know you've been selected." I had asked 01:18:00him, "Are you sure you're calling the right person?" It was hard to believe -- that was something that was really happening for us. For PJ and I, it was like we struggled so long with developing taiko to really validate the work that we were doing because, again, we were always being challenged that we're not authentic, we're not for real, we didn't really study from masters in Japan, we're making our own version of the taiko here. The sense of tradition for some people was not there for what we were doing basically. When we received the award, we just felt, wow, finally, we feel that we'd been validated for the work we've been doing, and it's coming from the NEA folk in traditional arts division.

FARRELL: Yeah, that's significant and also really interesting especially tying back to what you said when you first 01:19:00visited Japan, how things moved forward there. Here, you're moving that forward so you're keeping in step with what's happening anyway, and it's not just fixed in time.

HIRABAYASHI: No. Actually, I feel now what we do here in America or outside of Japan, it's totally influencing what's going on in Japan now. There are groups now in Japan who are making their own wine barrel type of drums, and even though their traditional drum makers are going to that format. Because the access to trees or wood, the Japanese wood is not there anymore, and so ecologically it's much better to do a barrel versus a solid-piece drum, and so they're doing that. Musically, we were so criticized for using other 01:20:00instruments besides what we call the taiko, and so now other groups are just using anything and everything that what's taboo for us now is common. Yeah, I just have to say we kind of led the field.

FARRELL: Yeah, and what's that been like for you to see that, those changes happen after you're forming your identity with that and the identity of the San Jose group? What's it like for you to see people follow in your footsteps, and also now, there's 500 chapters, to also see taiko grow in such a big way?

HIRABAYASHI: We're honored that we were part of the early push to get things started and just helping to develop the art form here. At times, I think I'm getting over a little bit 01:21:00more, but naturally, I feel that that people don't know exactly what we've done to help establish different things. Our work to help design the actual barrel drum here, what that meant for others to take it on. Musically, to create that taiko program that so many of the people are copying in different ways and that the sound and whatever and instrumentation or whatever. All of those things that we were doing so long ago that others were not doing, and now it's so commonplace. Folks don't know the roots of it all. I guess that kind of question that we're asking right now or I'm starting to ask other folks, do you understand the history of taiko, from your own perspective what that means. 01:22:00It's like do you know the history but it's also a question like who tells the story and how is it told basically.

FARRELL: Yeah, I think that's a really good point is what you're saying and where it's coming from says so much about that. Speaking of preserving history and who's telling the story, how it's being told, you were also involved with the cultural and the historical preservation of San Jose's Japantown. Can you come in a little bit about your involvement with that?

HIRABAYASHI: All right, sure. Well, that's always been a big interest for us to make sure that San Jose Japantown doesn't turn into LA or San Francisco Neomachi thing. How do we prevent redevelopment or big 01:23:00companies coming in and buying the entire Japantown and redoing things? The cultural and historical preservation of what Japantown looks like has been important for a lot of folks in the community, and we were able to form this group quite a few years ago, in the early 2000s, I guess. I think about 2002, 2003 -- [coughs] excuse me. A group of folks in Japantown from different organizations came together to create what we called the Japantown Community Congress of San Jose, and basically it was representatives from all the major organizations and institutions within Japantown. The core thing was the cultural and historical preservation. Actually, at that time, the three Japantowns. San Francisco, LA, and San Jose were able to get some state-funded money in order to do some projects to help push that 01:24:00forward. It was John Vasconcellos who's the state senator at the time, was able to push a bill through that gave each Japantown, it was about a million dollar funding source that split up, it was about 300,000 per Japantown in order to do something.

San Jose Japantown, at that time we decided, well, we needed to form an organization, which is why this thing formed in order to get the money. We needed to partner with the city agency, which was the Redevelopment Agency of San Jose at the time, in order to be able to get the money and spend it. Then we needed to decide what we wanted to do with it. We decided that we wanted to create historical landmarks or benches or what you saw when you're walking around Japantown. Those were all put into place because of the congress. On the corner of Fifth and Jackson, there's the Issei stone and the Wall of Values and all those things were part of the what we 01:25:00wanted to develop in order to help give the historical context for what Japantown is all about. The benches and those rest stops we have, what we called the Ikoi no Ba stops just like the one in front of the museum and one in front of Issei Memorial Building, and that one monument in front of the Issei Memorial Building was all part of that funding. The organization, the Japantown Community Congress still exists. We're still watchdogging naturally what goes on in Japantown and making sure historical preservation still happens.

A big challenge for us now is actually making sure all those benches and those elements that we put in, which is now twenty years ago, which are already starting to have its own issues of staying clean or whatever to preserve them, so we're trying to meet. The maintenance of all those different things is our agenda now too. That's been a big 01:26:00thing for us, and I guess an important part of that is to get the city to recognize Japantown as a historical area, which we've been able to do that as an entity to be the one major group that if the city were to have a question what goes on in Japantown, they come to the congress to ask that question. We're in touch with our city council member and naturally the mayor in order to always keep that communication going.

FARRELL: Yeah, and you can get a real sense of how that's woven in too, as you were just describing, as you're walking around. It's all there, it's not hard to find, and so you get a real sense of a place I think by those things. I'm completely blanking on the cross streets but the plaque as well with incarceration where a lot of the families went to -- I think it was Hart 01:27:00Mountain in that area. Even just having all of that history woven in, and a lot of seeing the temple and having the museum there, it's all within walking distance too.

HIRABAYASHI: Right, right.

FARRELL: Yeah. Another thing, actually speaking of the San Jose Japanese American Museum, I may have missed a word there, but I'll say it, the San Jose Japanese American Museum. You were working as a graphic artist and you helped typeset and design the format, layout for one of their books, Japanese Legacy. Can you tell me a little bit about that project?

HIRABAYASHI: Sure. Well, I was working with a printing company called Communicart at the time. Long story short, I got into graphic design and I was managing for 01:28:00this shop, basically what we called the preproduction, which is all the graphics design and what we would call prepress before it actually goes on to the printing press work. Part of that was just working with anyone that came in. Most of the clients were coming [in saying], "Oh, I need a brochure or a business card or something like this." But Gary Okihiro, who was a professor at Santa Clara University at the time, he was working on this book and so he approached the owners of the company Communicart. He had this book that he coauthored with another person and he wanted to print it, so would Communicart be willing to put the graphics or designing and put the book together? Basically, the typesetting -- we need to set all type in and then lay it out and do all that work and then get it printed -- so we took the project on.

Since I was the 01:29:00lead design personnel, it was given to me as a project to do all the typesetting. I actually had to type all the text and then design the book to what it looked like and then do the layout and pasteup for it all. It took a while to do that. I mean that was the first time I ever -- like I mentioned, most of projects I was doing were pretty simple things, single flyer sheets. A whole book was little daunting of a task just to figure that out and then the amount of work and things, but I'm very proud with how it turned out. We were fortunate we had some great people that was supporting the project and everything, and it just came out really well at the time.

FARRELL: Have you stayed involved with the museum since then?

HIRABAYASHI: I'm not actively involved with 01:30:00it, but naturally, we support the museum in whatever way we can. A lot of the original members actually who started the museum, had passed or are no longer around unfortunately. Like everyone else, the past two years with COVID, it's been really tough for the museum, so things are just starting to open back up. But through the community congress -- because they're represented in the congress, too -- we're always in touch about their activities and sharing what's going on in that way.

One of the activities that the congress does also is what we call it a summer internship program for college students. Right now, the Japanese American Museum is probably the lead on that internship program because we actually have the interns, at least the past of couple summers, were working primarily with the museum to support their activities. It's been really important to be connected with them in that 01:31:00way. PJ has actually worked a little bit more with them. She's been trained as a docent to do things there. I've done the historical walks for the Japantown area just because of the stuff I know about Japantown too.

FARRELL: Yeah, that's great. The day I was there were actually quite a few people. This was during the pandemic and there were quite a few people there. It was nice to see that people were coming in. One thing I wanted ask about is -- so we talked a little bit about you going to Japan for the first time. Have you returned since then?

HIRABAYASHI: Oh yeah. Fortunately, I've had many different kind of opportunities to go back for different things. We actually took San Jose taiko there on two different tours. One was a performance tour we were able to go on in the late '80s and then 01:32:00the last time we took a group, it was more of an educational tour in a way because it was just before PJ and I were stepping out of our role as the leadership for San Jose taiko. We wanted to pass on the contacts of the people we knew in Japan to the members of the group, so we took most of the group over on a tour to visit different places and meet different people in groups. Also just going over on individual, other small projects or whatever, PJ probably has travelled there more often than I have, but I think I've been there at least almost a dozen times over the last forty-five years or whatever.

FARRELL: Yeah, it's a significant number of trips.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, I've been fortunate.

FARRELL: Yeah. What it's like for you to travel there? You had mentioned some identity things before where when people look at you versus when you speak, there's a different 01:33:00reaction. Aside from that, what's your experience been like going there and thinking about your family's history and that kind of thing?

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, I might've mentioned earlier that my family is from the Hiroshima area, and I've never really visited Hiroshima yet, and that's something that's on my list I need to really do. For whatever reason, I haven't done that even though I've been to Japan many times. Taiko doesn't really take me to that area of the country anyways, but that's a not a good excuse, I guess, for not going. But anyways, I guess now because Japan, especially over the last twenty years to me, has become so international in a way versus when I first went in the early '80s, it's much easier to travel around naturally to just get around and whatever. I guess one of the last trips that I was able to 01:34:00go on -- or two trips ago -- PJ was there actually on a fellowship, so she was doing some work. We were in the Kyoto and we were asked to serve on a panel to talk to the students at Doshisha University there. One of our friends was teaching a class there.

I'm telling you the story because I thought it was really interesting because these students were so interested in our background as being Japanese American, which never really happened before, to me at least. What was even more interesting is the fact that when I mentioned that I grew up in Oakland and the neighborhood I grew up in is where the Black Panthers were organizing, they were just fascinated with that. And not only fascinated but they knew about the whole Black Panther movement and what that meant. Again, that was something that I had never experienced about 01:35:00Japanese, younger Japanese students really even caring about. This trip was in 2014, so it's a little while ago, but still it was definitely pre-George Floyd and all this other stuff, but it was just curiosity that these students from there had this interest in what was happening in America in that way.

I became a celebrity because I grew up in Oakland and experienced what the Panthers experience was all about. I couldn't even answer their questions really other than from my own perspective, right, because they actually knew a bit more about the Panther more than I did. [laughs] But that was just mind-blowing that that's what going on now. Also I guess 01:36:00culturally, I always find Japan interesting as far as how they interpret or view other cultural groups or music even. Like I mentioned earlier, growing up in in the Bay Area, any kind of music you will want to hear or see, it's really easy, or learn, you could find teachers or go see it happening. In Japan, if they want to see an African drum group, they don't have access, so they're bringing groups from Africa; that's their context for what it means. They really go back to their root cultures of how they interpret things. I find that really interesting too because it's a very different perspective on how they view and understand and learn what culture is about within that context versus how we view within the context of what we determine as multicultural perspective.

FARRELL: Yeah, that's really interesting. That's a really 01:37:00interesting illustration of the differences, and also I am constantly pleasantly surprised about the youth today and the things that they know. They know about the Panther party in Japan and that's pretty cool.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah.

FARRELL: Yeah. Have you ever been on pilgrimage before?

HIRABAYASHI: A long time ago just in Manzanar, just real briefly, but that's the only one. I've never gone to any others since then.

FARRELL: Is there any particular reason for that, or just it hasn't happened?

HIRABAYASHI: It's just timing-wise for whatever reason. PJ has been too perhaps more than I have. We actually were scheduled to go to Manzanar to do something there in 2020, so that's the year of the pandemic. For the first 01:38:00time, we were supposed to go there to perform and do something and then naturally it got canceled.

FARRELL: Yeah, that all makes sense. Do you know if any of your siblings have been on pilgrimage?

HIRABAYASHI: I think just my oldest brother perhaps. I don't think any of my sisters have gone to anything, no.

FARRELL: Okay, got it, okay.

HIRABAYASHI: My parents never went to anything.

FARRELL: Is that something you are interested in doing in the future?

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah, I mean especially Topaz since that's where my folks were and especially now since there's so much controversy that's going on unfortunately. I think I mentioned to you Jonathan Hirabayashi who I'm related to -- he's my landlord -- is very active with what's going on there too. He's always telling me about different things that he's involved with there and or providing information and things like 01:39:00this. I do want to get over there at some point.

FARRELL: Yeah. I mean it also will be interesting, maybe things will change there in the next couple of years too based on everything that's happening now.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah.

FARRELL: And an evolving situation at this point.

HIRABAYASHI: I hope so. I just always feel there's two sides to every story, and this incident, unfortunately not all the sides to the stories have come out effectively. Some people were really reacting violently in a way to what they feel was incorrect without really knowing perhaps what was happening.

FARRELL: With the Wakasa Memorial removal?

HIRABAYASHI: Right.

FARRELL: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens, how that unfolds further.

HIRABAYASHI: I agree. Hopefully it all works out, just people get to a better place on what it's all about.

FARRELL: Yeah, I think 01:40:00so and it's an important site.

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah.

FARRELL: Yeah. I do want to ask you some reflective questions, but before we get to that part, is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven't covered yet?

HIRABAYASHI: Let's see. No, I guess there could be, but no, I'm good, nothing offhand that jumps out for me right now, so yes.

FARRELL: Okay, yeah.

HIRABAYASHI: I guess the only thing is maybe what I'm doing more a little bit right now. I don't know if I've mentioned I'm leading the Multicultural Arts Leadership Institute. It's actually a leadership program that I helped start with two other people. Let's see, 2008 was the first class, so about 2006 and '07 we were organizing to create this leadership program here and realizing 01:41:00that artists of color were not really getting access to a lot of the funding and opportunities that were going on within the city in San Jose or the area. I personally had a chance to actually be involved or go through some of other leadership programs but realizing all of them were pretty much not really catering to the activities or events or experiences I've had as the artist of color basically. We felt that it was important to create a program of color for artists that would help them in their own leadership roles within our community here, and so we created this program called the Multicultural Artist Leadership Institute or we refer to it as the MALI program. It's currently in its thirteenth year of operating.

From the beginning, I've been advisor and I helped start the program, get it off the 01:42:00ground. I was leading San Jose Taiko, so I really couldn't be involved in directing it and so it was passed on to some other people to direct. Just before the pandemic, the person that was coordinating the program was stepping out to leave for another job. The program was based at the School of Arts and Culture at Mexican Heritage Plaza and so they knew naturally -- I was involved with the advising still -- so they asked me if I would be willing to step in to help temporarily fill the leadership role of the program, so I did that. This in the fall of 2019, I started to do that, and they offered me to come in and actually start working on the program as part of staff, part-time in the February of 2020, and so naturally in March 2020 it had been closed down. Anyway, I've been running 01:43:00this and still trying to keep this program together under the pandemic. It's still functioning and actually recruiting the next class, which is of the fourteenth class to start in May. I'm very proud of this program because it's really created about 140 artists of color within our community that's within our network now that's gone through the classes. A lot of them have gone on to different jobs or leading the organizations or executive directors at their organizations now and just are great advocates for the arts. We're pretty proud of that program right now.

FARRELL: Yeah, that's really fantastic and it's a great program for people to go through. You've been able to keep that going online or digitally during the pandemic?

HIRABAYASHI: Yeah. Initially when it first happened, we had a class that was meeting in person, then we had to move it to Zoom, unfortunately, which was a horrible ending for that class. The 01:44:00following '21, I decided a class like that really can't function on Zoom, so I postponed operating class and then restarted it afterwards. The current class actually been meeting in person and so we've been able to do that so far.

FARRELL: Oh, that's great.

HIRABAYASHI: It's a small class, there's only eight members, so it's doable in that way.

FARRELL: Yeah, that's great. Does that come with any exhibit space where they can show some of their work or is that not really part of it?

HIRABAYASHI: Yes and no. The School of Arts and Culture has a lot of different facilities and so we naturally make it available to the artists in whatever genre of work they're doing. That's what we hope, that they're able to bring back their work to the school or to the community in different ways. The School of Arts and Culture is just one of the places that they can do 01:45:00that. We have a 500-seat theater, a gallery space, outdoor performance spaces, so there's a lot of classroom spaces to teach, so there is a lot of opportunities there. It's been a great situation for me just to move on to another level of organizing and helping to mentor other folks in different ways.

FARRELL: Yeah, and that's one of my reflective questions for you is, is what it's meant to you to work so closely with the community in San Jose, the Asian American community, the Japanese community, the community of artists there, seniors? You've worked in so many different capacities with the community.

HIRABAYASHI: Right. I guess my working style is I like to help in whatever way possible. I've been in leadership roles naturally, but I really prefer to be more in the background of 01:46:00things. I enjoy being in a supportive role versus the lead role, so if there's any chance I could push someone out in front to be the spokesperson, I'll do that. I feel like I work more effectively in that role, in that way, and especially now, especially in my capacity where I am in my age and just where I'm at in my life basically. Even with this position currently at the School of Arts and Culture, when they ask me to come on and work -- first it was temporary, so I said fine. Then they'd say, "Well now we really want you permanently." It is a part-time job, but it's a permanent position now. I had to really think about whether or not I wanted to do that because really I was hoping to find someone else to take over and not be so involved in that. But they really want to 01:47:00hang on to me, so it's nice to be wanted in that way I guess and to have a purpose and be able to do a lot of things. I'm realizing there's still so much more to do and so that's what's important. This has just given me another opportunity to be involved with that.

I'm still involved with the Japantown Community Congress organization, so naturally on that part, the historical, cultural preservation at that level. Even with San Jose taiko, we're trying to build a building -- I think we've mentioned to you before in Japantown -- so that's still in the works. I'm hoping that will be completed in a couple years still. Those are big projects still on the horizon that I'd like to see finished off, and that's where I'm at right now with those things.

FARRELL: Given the breadth of your work and how long you've been at this, what are some of the things when you look back that you're the proud 01:48:00 of?

HIRABAYASHI: I guess again just starting programs, helping to start different programs and being able to step out of them after they got going. Being there when we're trying to do the senior services activities, and that rolled into this organization Yu-Ai Kai. It was not just me, it was a group of students that we were all pretty active at the time, but naturally, it took a little work at that time to get that stuff organized and going. But then for the like Yu-Ai Kai, when they discovered in looking back in their history that there was this group of San Jose State students, which I was part of, that was doing that. They had no idea. But for me, it's not important that people do know that I was part of that or even 01:49:00starting the San Jose taiko basically now because the leadership has changed over.

In the taiko world, naturally people just still do look at me as part of San Jose taiko, but I think that for me is still not even the importance of what that meant, that means. For me it's more important if there was a way I could still support the larger community within the taiko world, I'm more willing to do that. One of the things I've been doing within that context is I was part of starting this Taiko Community Alliance, which is a national organization here and so I'm on the advisory committee for that. And last year, with one of the other members of that organization, Derek Oye, he and I cotaught a leadership class for the taiko community. Those are the kind of things I love doing, just helping people get involved with stuff and giving them the 01:50:00tools to move on and do their own thing basically.

I guess if it's awards, naturally the NEA have recognition. How can I not say that's the biggest thing? [laughs] And then again that's the Smithsonian, the American History division of the Smithsonian, came to us to say we want to document your archives, that's amazing.

FARRELL: It really is, yeah. Looking back too, what does it mean to you to have found taiko and then created this chapter and helped influence so many other people who are interested?

HIRABAYASHI: I'm sorry?

FARRELL: Looking back, what did it mean to you to find taiko and then you get involved and expand people's 01:51:00 interest?

HIRABAYASHI: Well, people when they look at what we've done or I helped do, they always tell me, "Well, you really built your own competition. If you're the third group, you could've just taught people and make them be part of your group rather than trying to help them start new groups," or "Why were you so open with your information just to share?" For me especially was I wanted to help develop the art form basically, and I was not interested in having a hundred mini San Jose taiko groups joining around. It will be a very boring art if that's what it was basically. [laughs] I never thought of creating the competition, but it's really building the art form, building the 01:52:00field. I guess even in business, people say competition is good. If you want to look at that, it kept us on our toes. I always felt that we should be honored that people are copying, and so I say if they're always copying you, that means you still have something worth giving. I still see people copying us, so I feel honored in that way.

FARRELL: Yeah, and on that note, what are your hopes for the future of taiko whether that's the San Jose chapter or in general?

HIRABAYASHI: I guess my big concern right now, it's a little bit about going back to the history, who knows the history, who's collecting that, and who's telling the story? I would hate to see taiko become like the next yoga or karate thing where people are just doing it 01:53:00without the context of what it really means and where it came from and the history of all that. Or it has been capitalized in different ways that it becomes just a commercial event. Understanding the roots of taiko for me, the history is where I'm looking at to try to spend a little bit more time to get into that and making sure people understand that and somehow be able to share that.

And then PJ have been talking. Next year is our fiftieth anniversary of playing taiko, 2023, so it's fifty years for San Jose Taiko but from PJ and I it's fifty years of playing taiko. We're thinking maybe we should go out and try to tell our story of why we do taiko and what's important, and what is our history behind that and what did we go through to bring taiko to where it is and how view what taiko is now.

FARRELL: That would be 01:54:00incredible. My last question for you for today is how do you hope that people will remember or think about the history, the legacy of the Asian American community in San Jose?

HIRABAYASHI: Well, I hope that people will understand the depth and the variety of what that means within the concept of what Asian American means. Unfortunately, the term Asian American, as you probably know, it's as a political term that was developed actually from Cal in the late '60s basically, so it came out of UC Berkeley there. It was a term that was generated to help unify and create a stronger 01:55:00powerbase for the people of Asian descent basically. But at the same time, what that has done, I feel and we're realizing too is it has -- unfortunately it raised the history and the identity of us as individual Asians being Japanese or Chinese or Filipino or Korean or whatever now there are many that are here. Unfortunately, with the Asian hate crimes and things like this going on, we all unfortunately get lumped back into that one category. I walk down the street, they don't know if I'm Chinese or Vietnamese or Japanese, so whatever, but I could be attacked simply because I'm Asian.

How people relate, blaming Asians here or Asian Americans here for what happened unfortunately in China for the pandemic, for the COVID-19. That whole incident, it's just a great example that's happening 01:56:00now to what we need to be afraid, and so how do we protect ourselves and how do we elevate ourselves so that people understand who we are as Asian Americans here in America and what does that mean.

FARRELL: Yeah, and understand the nuances of that too I think.

HIRABAYASHI: Right.

FARRELL: Yeah, which I think goes back to what you're saying about the importance of who's telling the stories.

HIRABAYASHI: Right.

FARRELL: Yeah.

HIRABAYASHI: So thank you for all the work you're doing; you're helping us tell our story.

FARRELL: Well, I thank you for being so willing to share your story. I really appreciate it, I feel like I've learned a lot. It's been a pleasure to talk with you so I really appreciate it.

HIRABAYASHI: Oh, thank you.

[End of interview]