NELLIE SARRACINO: -- he told them, "We're going to deport all the dagos back to
where they came from." [laughs]FUREY: Dagos. Fortunately we have no Italian people in the room right now to be
offended. So, shall we commence?N. SARRACINO: I'm just going to stand.
FUREY: Okay. Last time we just started off with your experience in Richmond, but
this time we could go back to where you were born and the year you were born, and your name.N. SARRACINO: My name? [laughs] My name is Nellie Sarracino. I was born here in
New Mexico at Encinal [phonetic] Village.FUREY: What year were you born?
00:01:00N. SARRACINO: 1925, January 30th.
FUREY: Can you tell us a little bit about your parents, what your parent's names
were, and what they did?N. SARRACINO: My father's name was Charlie Francisco Arkey [phonetic], and he
was a farmer. But he did work with the railroad in Fresno, California. He worked as a fireman when Beckman was engineer. And my mother, of course, was a housewife.FUREY: Did he work in Fresno before you were born?
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes, right.
FUREY: And he returned to the reservation to --
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
FUREY: For when you were born.
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
FUREY: So can you tell us a little bit about your early years in the late
twenties? Can you tell us about your life as a little kid, what you would do, 00:02:00how your daily life was like?CASTLE: Where'd you go to school?
N. SARRACINO: At the day school here at Encinal. I went up to sixth grade, and I
went off to school in Albuquerque. That was a boarding school in Albuquerque for the Indian people.FUREY: What was Encinal like back then? Now we have TVs, satellite dishes here,
refrigerators. Could you tell us what your home was like here?N. SARRACINO: Oh, it was all right. I mean, you know, everybody had whatever.
Like you're talking about refrigerators and TV, well, we were just like 00:03:00everybody else, I guess.FUREY: And what would your mother do during the day? What would be the first
thing your mother would do?N. SARRACINO: My mother's name?
FUREY: No. In the morning, what would your mother do?
N. SARRACINO: Cook breakfast. But she used to milk cows, though, early in the
morning. My father had a lot of cattle where they penned the cattle up, just a few yards from here. My mother made cheese, and my grandmother made the butter. That's why I don't care for milk.[Castle laughs]
FUREY: What kind of chores did you have around the house?
N. SARRACINO: Really, I don't even remember that far back, as to what kind of
00:04:00toys we had.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: No, chores, Mom; work, chores, work around the house.
N. SARRACINO: Oh, well, just I guess clean house, whatever.
FUREY: So in sixth grade you go off to Albuquerque.
N. SARRACINO: Right.
FUREY: Now, was that a big change for you, going from the reservation?
N. SARRACINO: Oh no, no, no.
FUREY: Tell us a little bit about the school that you went to in Albuquerque.
N. SARRACINO: It was nice going to school. We had different departments where
you learned a lot of different things to do, like sewing, doing laundry work in the laundromat, and, of course, a lot of art and craft sewing, and then, of course, home economics, where they teach you different kind of things like 00:05:00sewing, making dresses, and cooking. That was what we learned.FUREY: Were your classmates -- were there other Lagunas in the school?
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes. Well, we were all mixed. There were all different tribes
that went to school at the Indian school, and then some, of course, yes, Lagunas were my classmates.FUREY: So do you remember friends from other tribes? Can you tell us about some
of the other friends you had there?N. SARRACINO: Oh, gosh, I won't even name all the tribes, but there was Hopis,
San Felipes, San Juans, Santa Domingos, Santa Anas, and Isleras [phonetic] that went to school there. There were all different tribes that went to school there.FUREY: You must have come home on the weekends.
N. SARRACINO: Well, you don't even come home on weekends. You just stayed there
00:06:00at the school.CASTLE: Did you miss home?
N. SARRACINO: At the school here, yes, you got a chance to come home.
CASTLE: Did you miss home, though, while you were in Albuquerque? Was it hard to
be away from home all that time?N. SARRACINO: Oh no, no, no, because we had all kinds of activities that the
school had for the kids that were going to school there.FUREY: So you went to school there from sixth grade till which age?
N. SARRACINO: No, seventh grade.
FUREY: Seventh grade until which grade?
N. SARRACINO: Yes, I was in the seventh grade in 1937, I remember. I first went
off to school that year, then went up to eleventh grade. Then I transferred over to Gallup. I was going to school in Gallup, and finished there. 00:07:00FUREY: So you were a little closer to home.
N. SARRACINO: Yes, because I had a sister that was working for the government at
Fort Wingate, and my brother-in-law was the bus driver, so I had a chance to ride the bus back and forth to Gallup.FUREY: And at this point you had family that worked on the railroad.
N. SARRACINO: Oh, yes.
FUREY: Worked for Santa Fe. Can you tell us about what kind of jobs your family
had in the railroad during the 1930s?N. SARRACINO: Well, my father was the one that worked for the railroad -- after
moving back home, he worked for the section gang, they called it. That was down at New Laguna. Their section was down at New Laguna. I don't know how many years he worked down there at the section gang. Then after that he worked for ECW, 00:08:00soil erosion or something. I don't know what they called it.FUREY: When did you first hear about the colonies, the Santa Fe colonies in the
west? When did you first hear that there were possibilities of employment?N. SARRACINO: It wasn't really a colony at that time. It was just that my uncle
was the one that was in charge up there. Tom Ahmi [phonetic] was his name. He had come home just to visit, and he was asking me if I wanted to work for Santa Fe, so then I went out there with my uncle to Richmond. At that time it wasn't a colony yet, but the Laguna people lived there in boxcars, as I was telling you 00:09:00before. At that time they were still on wheels, and that was how I got to Richmond.FUREY: Do you remember when you first came into the Bay Area what it looked
like? It was a big city; you saw the ocean.N. SARRACINO: Well, really, it was no difference. Being in Albuquerque, it's a
big city and nothing new.FUREY: Describe what the village looked like when you arrived there. The boxcars
were burgundy, and there were about thirty boxcars.N. SARRACINO: Right.
FUREY: So could you describe, for someone who doesn't know what they looked like
during World War II, could you just tell us, paint a little picture? 00:10:00N. SARRACINO: Well, not really much to say about that, because everybody knows
what a boxcar looks like, and I have a sister that was already there with her family, so that was who I lived with for a while when I was working there.CASTLE: What's your sister's name?
N. SARRACINO: Doris Devore.
CASTLE: And did she also work for the railroad, or just your uncle or your brother-in-law?
N. SARRACINO: No, no, she was a housewife. My brother-in-law worked for the railroad.
FUREY: And how did you find work?
N. SARRACINO: How did I find work?
CASTLE: That's what she came up to do.
FUREY: Well, how did you get the employment, because you were an oiler.
N. SARRACINO: Well, you have to apply for work at the Santa Fe office like
everybody else, you know. You have to go wherever they're hiring work, so that 00:11:00was how I applied for a job. Then I went to work the very next day, because they were hiring a lot of people during the wartimes.FUREY: Can you describe to us what you did the first couple of weeks, and what
your job duties were?N. SARRACINO: Oh yes. Yes, I think I told you that in that first interview I had.
FUREY: Okay. So what year did you arrive in Richmond?
N. SARRACINO: 1943.
FUREY: So at this point many of the men had gone away overseas. They'd been drafted.
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes. The very first time when my uncle came after the men,
there was over a hundred men that went to Richmond to work for Santa Fe. But they had to go through health screenings like everybody else, and if they 00:12:00passed, well, they took them on to Richmond to work for the railroad. There was over a hundred men, and they used to all sleep in the assembly hall. They all had single beds, before they were put into boxcars. The men that had families were the ones that had the boxcars, but the single men lived at the firehouse. They called it the firehouse, because there was a big room upstairs at the firehouse, and they had a kitchen of their own where they cooked.FUREY: And Mr. Shutiva, he just described to us how when he went into the
service his father was very, very nervous, and kind of scared about what was happening. 00:13:00N. SARRACINO: Yes. That was where?
FUREY: He said during World War II there was a lot of fear among the elders for
the young people who went away to war. He said they weren't sure if people were going to come bomb, because the village was right next to Standard Oil and the Santa Fe shipyards, so if you're going to bomb, that would be a good target.N. SARRACINO: Right.
FUREY: So how did you feel about the war? Was it a scary time?
N. SARRACINO: Well, really, I guess you just don't think about something like
that, you know. But then I'm sure some of us probably were just wondering what might happen, you know, because Standard Oil was the main area where Japan was going to bomb, Standard Oil. But as far as I can remember, there was a big bomb they took up on First Street. There were two buildings on each side. It was an 00:14:00empty lot, and the day that the army were there, they got everybody off the streets and they had to carry this bomb out real slowly, and I don't know what they did with it.FUREY: Now did you work with Japanese, because Mr. Shutiva said when he was a
teenager what he would do is he would collect the sand and apply the sand to the brakes, because in order for the brakes to work you had to put a little bit of sand in between, apply the sand. At the beginning of the war there were Japanese who were employed there, and later they were taken away. Do you remember --N. SARRACINO: No.
FUREY: Yes, probably by '43 -- I think it was May of '42 when all the Japanese
were relocated. And there were Mexican nationals who also worked and lived right 00:15:00next to the village, right?N. SARRACINO: Yes. They lived right next to the Indian village, because that was
during the wartimes. They brought the nationals there, and they had to have an interpreter, because they didn't speak English. But they worked for the railroad. I remember they were there for a couple of years, and then they took them away. I think it was after when the war was over.FUREY: Can you describe to us -- so you're right next to Standard Oil. I forget
who told me, but a lot of the smoke from Standard Oil would come into the yard, and the children would breathe the smoke. Do you remember the smoke coming into the village?N. SARRACINO: Well, yes, but I don't know really just what kind of smoke that
00:16:00was. Once in a while that happened, not all of the time; once in a while, when the air probably is blowing towards the Santa Fe Indian Village. But as far as I can remember, it wasn't all the time.FUREY: Can you describe for us times that it rained quite a bit?
N. SARRACINO: What?
FUREY: When it rained, can you describe times when it flooded?
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes.
FUREY: Because it was next to the swamps.
N. SARRACINO: We used to get flooded because we were near the beach, I mean near
the ocean there, when it rained. It used to rain a lot. You've lived in San Francisco and you know how that weather is out there. 00:17:00FUREY: You talked a little bit last time about the activities you would do to
have fun at nighttime, the nightlife. You'd go to Oakland. Can you tell us a little bit about what you would do for fun?N. SARRACINO: Yes, well, I think I already had told you that. I don't want to --
FUREY: Fair enough.
CASTLE: Ruth, would you mind moving into that seat next to her? What did you
talk about earlier, when it was your uncle came?NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Yes, my Uncle John?
CASTLE: What were you guys talking about?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I had asked her like if she remembered, because she used to
tell us about the people, and at that time they were called colored people. I had asked her if she remembered them, you know, what had happened, and then she was telling me -- what was the name of that man that kind of like opened it up 00:18:00for those people?N. SARRACINO: Oh, that was John L. Lewis, because the coloreds in Richmond had
their own town. They called it North Richmond. I don't know if you've heard about that North Richmond. That was a colored town, and nobody could drive into that colored town. They had kind of like a big gate at the entrance. And when they rode on the train, they had a different car to ride. Even in Richmond they wouldn't mix in like restaurants, they had special areas where they can go. But as far as I remember, then there was a man named John L. Lewis that opened a 00:19:00thing for the coloreds, where they can mix.CASTLE: Was he a lawyer, or a politician?
N. SARRACINO: No, no. I think he was from somewhere in Florida somewhere. He was
some kind of a commissioner.CASTLE: Okay. Was it John L.?
N. SARRACINO: John L. Lewis.
CASTLE: Because I know John Lewis was a big --
N. SARRACINO: John L. Lewis was his name.
CASTLE: I wonder if that's the same guy. He turned out to be a big politician later.
N. SARRACINO: Maybe.
CASTLE: In the Civil Rights Movement.
N. SARRACINO: I don't know.
CASTLE: He opened access?
N. SARRACINO: Yes. That was then when coloreds could, you know, come into town
and shop and mix with other people, you know. But as far as I can remember, they had their own town, North Richmond.CASTLE: And they did all their social activities, like stayed to themselves in
00:20:00North Richmond, more or less? What else were we talking about earlier that you all -- no, I can't remember either.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: She was just asking him what he remembered, and he
remembered staying in the hall.N. SARRACINO: I think he was some kind of commissioner, that John L. Lewis, from
back East.CASTLE: Do you just remember his name from the newspapers?
N. SARRACINO: From the newspapers.
CASTLE: Okay. Yes, so he probably was the same guy. He's a really -- I just
didn't know that, so I'll have to look it up. If he desegregated Richmond --N. SARRACINO: Yes. You might find it in the newspapers somewhere.
CASTLE: That's really important that they covered it in the newspapers, then.
N. SARRACINO: He probably knows where North Richmond is, if he's lived there
long enough.CASTLE: Was it Parchester [phonetic] Village in that area, or was that different?
00:21:00NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: It was further.
N. SARRACINO: But you weren't allowed to go into their area, because that was
colored town.FUREY: It wasn't part of Richmond. It was outside of Richmond.
N. SARRACINO: Yes, during the --
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Actually, it's close to Pennsylvania Avenue.
N. SARRACINO: -- the times we were out there. But I remember when you rode the
train, they had their own car. They put them in another different car. They wouldn't mix with the other people, I mean, which was sad, but I mean, you know, they're humans, too.CASTLE: But not always treated that way.
N. SARRACINO: That's right. Just like the rest of us Indians.
CASTLE: You felt treated that way?
N. SARRACINO: Not really, no. Everybody was friendly. Oh, we had a lot of
friends, the business people especially, because my husband worked with different people. When they go out to perform, or they go to conventions, and 00:22:00they get hired and they meet different people.CASTLE: So this was your husband's, when they would go out dancing?
N. SARRACINO: Yes. They have to join the Star Guild, they called it. It was $300
to join the Star Guild.CASTLE: Star Guild?
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
CASTLE: What is that?
N. SARRACINO: That's some kind -- well, you know, they get hired at like -- they
can go into like Las Vegas, to Harrah's Club, and to different convention places. I remember we also worked the Smiley Burnett [phonetic] down in Lodi [phonetic].NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I think it's basically like the Actors Guild, but at that
time I guess it was called --CASTLE: I see, okay. So it's kind of like the membership group.
N. SARRACINO: Yes. Just like a union, I'm sure, you know. They have to belong to
00:23:00something to enter, because there's a life-size cardboard picture of my husband at San Francisco, at the hotel. He stands there as you open the door, on your left-hand side. It's a life-size picture of him, but it's a cardboard.CASTLE: What's he wearing in it?
N. SARRACINO: All his Indian gear.
CASTLE: Does he have like the headdress?
N. SARRACINO: The war bonnet.
CASTLE: The war bonnet that we saw pictures of.
N. SARRACINO: Yes, because when we went there for -- well, usually the man that
was in charge of the group usually took us to dinner up there, to San Francisco, and that was how I got to see that picture of my husband. It's a cardboard, 00:24:00life-size cardboard.CASTLE: That's kind of a strange thing to see, isn't it?
N. SARRACINO: Yes, really, yes. And then as you go in, they have a big room
where they've got tables all lined up, where the performers have their pictures, and then theirs was on the table, too. Then when somebody wants some kind of performance, I guess that's where they go, and they contract these people.CASTLE: I see. Make sure I get this right, was this his war dance group?
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
CASTLE: He had a group where he played music, too, right?
N. SARRACINO: Right. That was just at the Indian village.
CASTLE: Okay, so that was for the dances that Ruth was telling us about.
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
CASTLE: Well, some of them. Well, you had rock and roll, kind of disco times,
too, didn't you?NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: They played the music from the what -- forties? And by the
00:25:00time the fifties came, it was like the record hop with the 45s. The music they had were the 75 records, and they played, I guess, kind of like the jazz bands, and they also played, I guess you would call it Mexican music, also. But me and my sister were talking about it one day, but they have names for that specific kind of music from the Southwest, and she's the one that can remember. There are different styles of music and you dance to it, and they used to play that.N. SARRACINO: Plus he had his own instruments, his own band. He had his own
drums. Victor is the one that's got the drums, supposed to have the drums.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Oh, he still has them?
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Where did Dad order his accordion from?
N. SARRACINO: Germany. It was specially ordered. His friend Mr. Manning ordered
00:26:00that for him from Germany.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Oh, the jeweler. He was a jewelry man.
FUREY: He didn't buy it from Germany during the war, did he?
N. SARRACINO: Yes. That was during the wartimes. He had it specially ordered.
FUREY: He ordered a German accordion during the war?
N. SARRACINO: Yes. Mr. Manning ordered that for him, the man that owns a jewelry
store in downtown Richmond.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: On Tenth Street.
N. SARRACINO: And Mr. Wolfe [phonetic] was his friend, too.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: He was a jeweler.
N. SARRACINO: He owned a jewelry store, that man.
CASTLE: Is that the same place where you would go in, that you got lockets from?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Yes, from Mr. Manning. He gave us lockets and [unclear]
rings, I guess because he knew my parents.N. SARRACINO: Yes, we knew them real well. They were good friends.
CASTLE: So you knew a lot of people in Richmond.
N. SARRACINO: Oh, gosh, yes.
CASTLE: I mean, it sounds like you just had friends and connections and free
food and jewelry. How did you make these different sets of friends? Where did 00:27:00you meet people?N. SARRACINO: Like Mr. Manning, we met him when he first wanted the group to
perform in the parade. He was really a good friend of ours, Mr. Manning. I think there's a picture of little Ian [phonetic], when Ian, the big Ian you met, he was just a little guy. He used to perform.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: That was later, so they knew him when we were little.
N. SARRACINO: Just like this man that was in charge of the grandfather, he
shoots arrows with his bow, and he puts balloons all around on a board, like, and he shoots these arrows. He has a show like that. But the last one he wouldn't do, and this little guy sneaks out, my little grandson; he was little 00:28:00then. And he had a little, little bow and arrow about so long. I don't know if he still has it. He comes out from behind the curtains and shoots that balloon.CASTLE: The last balloon?
N. SARRACINO: The last balloon.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I don't even know if he remembers.
N. SARRACINO: And everybody is surprised, because he sneaks out before Mr. Tom
-- his name was Mr. Tom -- before Mr. Tom shoots that last balloon. But this little guy comes out from behind the curtains and shoots that balloon.CASTLE: Where was this done?
N. SARRACINO: Wherever, wherever, wherever they need a show.
CASTLE: I see.
FUREY: Did you perform during World War II?
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes, yes.
FUREY: Do you remember any specific parades or dances, performances during World
00:29:00War II?N. SARRACINO: Gosh. I won't even know, because there's a whole bunch of parades
we did. Those are all the trophies that you see on top. Those were first-place trophies we got.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I think they did it like Fourth of July, the Christmas
parade, a New Year's parade, something like that. But those were like three at least that I remember --CASTLE: For the City of Richmond?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: -- that my dad would tell us that they used to participate
in, just like I didn't know -- I guess they had a baseball team, so that was during that time when he was there before the war and after, I guess, that they had a baseball team. I guess like Windsell [phonetic] had a baseball team back home, and he had a baseball team also.N. SARRACINO: And I forget what the name of that stadium is where we performed
00:30:00with some of the movie stars. Remember down in Los Angeles?NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Oh, they performed at the Starlight --
N. SARRACINO: And the camera man was wondering if she was a girl. They kept
coming up close to her. "Is she a girl, or is she a boy?" She used to do the eagle dance.FUREY: This is in the early sixties or late fifties?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Yes, late fifties.
FUREY: One thing we're trying to talk about on this trip, in this project, is
church and religion. What church did you go to in Richmond? Do you remember the name?N. SARRACINO: St. Mary's.
FUREY: And what was that congregation like?
N. SARRACINO: That was at Point Richmond. No, it was Lady of Mercy, Lady of Mercy.
CASTLE: Did you go every Sunday?
N. SARRACINO: Everybody walks to church from the village. But like she was
00:31:00telling me about the Shutiva family. I think they belonged to another church, that family, already, when we lived in Richmond. But see, he married -- Mary is a Catholic, so they had to get married in the Catholic church.CASTLE: And then you stood up for them?
N. SARRACINO: Yes. That was who we sponsored.
CASTLE: Did you go to church every Sunday?
N. SARRACINO: Oh, we went to church every Sunday. We walked, because it wasn't a
long walk.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: About a quarter mile, or pretty close to half a mile.
CASTLE: In your Sunday best? Did you dress up for it? I always remember going to
Catholic church, and everybody dressed up.N. SARRACINO: Oh, I don't know. I don't remember being well dressed, really
dressed up. [laughs]FUREY: What were some of the activities you'd do at church? So you'd go to mass,
00:32:00but were there other dinners that you had with people?N. SARRACINO: Oh, there were all different nationalities that went to church
there, all different people. As long as they were Catholics, they were in church.FUREY: And you, like you mentioned earlier, you're part Italian.
N. SARRACINO: What? [laughs]
FUREY: You said a couple of minutes ago that you're part Italian. Can you talk
about maybe some of the other families that you knew at church, some of the connections you made?N. SARRACINO: Not really, no, no. I don't think we know too many people at church.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I think they just went to church and they came home, and if
was, say, like Easter, then they would go to church, come home, and just do something in the village, you know. They didn't really like go on picnics with a 00:33:00church picnic, or they didn't go with the crowd that whatever the church activity was doing. The only thing I remember was after the children, after they, I guess, brought their children, then years later, then the lady from Standard Oil, that's when she started coming, huh?N. SARRACINO: Yes, Martha. She was the one that taught them catechism, and then
when they were ready then they made, like, maybe their First Holy Communion, or Confirmation, something like that. I think what's-his-name, Curt, has that in the book already.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Yes, because I think she was there right when Irvin
[phonetic], because she remembers that same time --N. SARRACINO: Yes, she worked for Standard Oil.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: -- for the older kids. She had already been coming to teach
catechism then by the time we were of age and started going to catechism. But she must have been there for a long time. But she was a member of Our Lady of 00:34:00Mercy, there, too, and she worked at Standard Oil, and she had a friend. I forget her friend's name, but she used to come with her to teach catechism.FUREY: Would she come to the village?
N. SARRACINO: Yes, she comes down to the village. Yes, because the kids all go
meet her at the -- they had a recreation hall where we had a big building, where they used that for a recreation building.FUREY: I don't know if we discussed it last time, but how did you meet your husband?
N. SARRACINO: On the job.
FUREY: Do you remember a story about meeting him?
N. SARRACINO: No.
FUREY: You don't remember the day you met him.
N. SARRACINO: No. Too many years ago. [laughs]
CASTLE: Well, I don't remember the story of meeting my husband, and that was
00:35:00only eight years ago, so it's not always a big --N. SARRACINO: That's about sixty years ago. [laughs]
FUREY: What did he do on the job? Where was his job?
N. SARRACINO: He was an electrician's helper. He's an electrician. Like I was
telling you, remember, the lights went out on the train one time coming home, and the conductors were trying to see what they could do about it, but they didn't know just what exactly was wrong with it. So here comes the cook. He said, "Get Chief to check that thing." So he's an electrician on the coaches. My husband went there, and sure enough the lights came back on.CASTLE: He was good at it.
[interruption]
00:36:00NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Mom, you and Dad, did you guys come home to get married?
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes, we got married at Old Laguna Church, and before we got
married, Daddy had to make his First Holy Communion. [laughter] 00:37:00CASTLE: You've got to follow the rules.
N. SARRACINO: Yes. I remember it was still there, and he had breakfast with
Father Lemmert [phonetic].NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Then what did you guys come home in?
N. SARRACINO: We came home in a wagon. Yes, there were no cans tied to it.
[laughter] Remember how they tie all those cans?CASTLE: That would have spooked the horse, wouldn't it?
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Remember when they were selling war bonds?
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes. Eleanor Roosevelt was the one that was selling war bonds
at that time, President Roosevelt's wife. She was the one that even sold war 00:38:00bonds across with Tony Frow, Theresa's father. Yes, and somebody got the idea for that hula hoop. That was how that hula hoop was originated, because they saw her father doing the hoop dance with the hoops, and that was how they got those hoops. That's what they told on TV one time.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I guess after years later?
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Because then they came out with it.
CASTLE: Yes, yes. So seeing your dad do the --
N. SARRACINO: No, Theresa's father. I don't know if you know Theresa.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: No, they don't know Theresa.
N. SARRACINO: She doesn't know Theresa. Well, she --
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: That was my dad's friend.
N. SARRACINO: Yes, she went to school at Berkeley, and her father was the one
that was selling war bonds with Eleanor Roosevelt, and when they went across 00:39:00selling war bonds, somebody got the idea to make hula hoops, and that was how that hula hoops was originated.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Because they didn't come out till later.
N. SARRACINO: Yes. It was from this Indian man. They got the idea from Tony Frow
[phonetic]. His name was Tony Frow.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: So they were already like, I guess, helping to sell war
bonds, because I remember Dad made that -- they made a song about Uncle Sam.N. SARRACINO: Yes.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: And then remember at the end it says, "We're going to win
the war."N. SARRACINO: Yes. Right.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: So they would make songs for that time.
CASTLE: It was like a traditional -- this was an Indian song, or how was it sung?
N. SARRACINO: It's an Indian song, but only telling that we were going to win
the war.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I know that my brother-in-law, his father, too, he made
00:40:00songs, because Jacob would sing them.N. SARRACINO: Yes.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: He's gone now, too. He just passed away, but he remembered
those songs.CASTLE: They're just like a hand drum and then people would sing?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Well, basically like our regular music we play, or you
could call it like a forty-nine, where it's part English, part Indian. But they had songs during the war already about kind of --FUREY: Do you remember the words to those, how it went?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: The only part I remember is just like, "Buy you, Uncle
Sam," which was the war bond. I guess before the war, when they were starting to come out, and at the end it just said, "We're going to win the war. We're going to win the war."Then the other one that I remember was from my brother-in-law, but it talked
about -- and then in the English. But in the Indian words it was the regular language, where it talked about the war, when they went over; they were going overseas. But, see, I don't know if his brothers remember it, but he did, when 00:41:00his father, I guess, used to sing then. Because we were asking, and then I asked him one day and he sang, because of my dad. "Did you guys make songs during the war?"He goes, "Yeah, we did." So they did, but I don't even know if anybody remembers
them anymore, because a lot of the men that were out there in Richmond, they're already gone.CASTLE: Who would you sing the songs for? Were they just sung around the
village, or were they sung in public places?NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: I think they were just sung in the village when the men got
together. When they would practice singing, I guess they'd come up with a song, and they would, like, sing it, make songs, because my father, I guess, basically was like a songwriter, because a lot of the songs I guess that they sing here -- like we were standing at the plaza one day and my uncle said, "Do you know who wrote that song?"And we just looked at him. "No. You?"
And he said, "No, your father." So her father's a writer, too, and her brother.
00:42:00They sing songs that they've written, and even now. But like my Dad, I remember, really old songs also, but he was, I guess, basically a songwriter, my father. He made music. But anyway, that's what I got was that basically they did. They made songs during the wartime.Then in the Korean War my uncle, her brother, made us a song when he was in
Korea, about the war. He said he made a new song, so he sent it to us when he was in Korea.CASTLE: It sounds like your husband -- when you two first got together, not only
was he a really friendly guy on the job, but also the music that he sang, and the performances -- he really got to know a lot of people.N. SARRACINO: Right.
CASTLE: Both of you did, in Richmond. I've heard you tell some really
interesting stories about traveling on the trains, too. How were you treated 00:43:00when you traveled on the train home or somewhere, because of your relationship? Did they know you were his wife, and did they treat you well because of it? Do you remember?N. SARRACINO: Oh yes. Everybody was nice on the train, even the conductors, and
they tried to give you with whatever you might need to have. But the cooks were the ones that always -- were the ones that invited us to a free meal on the train, because they know my husband, that he worked for the coach yard as an electrician.CASTLE: I see. Did they call you something in particular? How did they address you?
N. SARRACINO: They always said, "Oh, here comes Mrs. Chief." [laughs]
CASTLE: And that's a pretty -- I mean, if there's a lot of Indians working on
00:44:00the railroad, being Chief or Mrs. Chief is no small -- I mean, that's a pretty significant role to play.N. SARRACINO: Well, see, he [unclear] people, too, because he advertised for the
railroad, for that new Super Chief that came through at one time.CASTLE: Is that a train? That's a new kind of train?
N. SARRACINO: Yes, that new diesel engine.
CASTLE: Oh, okay. So was it the first?
N. SARRACINO: That was the first time that it was inaugurated, that was diesel.
CASTLE: Instead of the steam engine you were telling me about?
N. SARRACINO: Yes. They didn't use steam engines no more. They usually used more
steam engines during the wartime, see, because they were shipping maybe Jeeps and army supplies, so it was the steam engines that really were on the railroad 00:45:00all the time. But the Chief came through, Super Chief came through when it was first inaugurated, and that's when the three men used to always advertise for Santa Fe, for Thomas, Santiago Thomas, and Sandy, my husband.CASTLE: What would they do?
N. SARRACINO: They'd dance. They'd put out a -- they even used to go around with
a nurse that traveled with them.CASTLE: Why was that?
N. SARRACINO: Because sometimes, you know, you never know, maybe something might
happen, or you know. But they always had a nurse.CASTLE: Just for them?
N. SARRACINO: Just for them.
CASTLE: That's pretty important, then.
N. SARRACINO: Right.
CASTLE: So how would it work? They would go perform at the depots when the train stopped?
N. SARRACINO: Well, probably at different stations. They'd make a platform for
00:46:00them, and then that's where they'd take part in dancing.CASTLE: So would the railroad -- Santa Fe would pull them off the jobs they
normally held?N. SARRACINO: Right, but they got paid.
CASTLE: Sounds like it would be pretty fun to go around and do that.
N. SARRACINO: Yes, really, advertise for Santa Fe.
CASTLE: Well, you were mentioning the steam engines during the war. Did they
transport a lot of troops around, too? People keep saying troop trains.N. SARRACINO: Oh yes, right. That's true, yes. They used to transfer soldiers on
what they called troop trains.CASTLE: Did they come through Richmond?
N. SARRACINO: They'd come through Richmond, because you see, some of them go to
Treasure Island, and maybe Alameda to that naval base, or Oakland Naval Base. 00:47:00CASTLE: Did they ever get a chance to stop in Richmond, and were there ever any
Laguna boys or Indian boys that would come to the village?N. SARRACINO: Oh yes, they would come and visit, you know. Not after they got
off the train, but after like maybe they were shipped back from overseas, over to Treasure Island, and they would come and visit.CASTLE: So the word was just out. People knew that there was an Indian village,
or they heard.N. SARRACINO: Yes.
CASTLE: And then they would come over and seek you out.
N. SARRACINO: Yes. And the ladies in the village would all get together and
cook, and then we would all eat together with the service boys that come to visit.CASTLE: The whole village would come?
N. SARRACINO: Right.
CASTLE: I bet that really gave them -- it was like a big warm hug.
N. SARRACINO: Just probably, poor things. They were probably lonesome for
home-cooked meals. 00:48:00CASTLE: There you go. I'm sure they were fed well. I can attest to that. [laughs]
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Was Dr. Brown there during the war, or later?
N. SARRACINO: No. Dr. Brown was always there. He was the Santa Fe doctor, Dr. Brown.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Because he had his little office right in the middle,
before the train yard, before you go up the viaduct. That's where we used to go, and he had an office in town, so as we got bigger then she'd take us down to the --N. SARRACINO: Yes, he had an office on 23rd Street.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Yes, and MacDonald.
N. SARRACINO: But then his nurse was always there at the [unclear].
CASTLE: She was right there in the yard?
00:49:00N. SARRACINO: Right. There was a clinic right there at the Santa Fe yards.
CASTLE: Could the families go, too?
N. SARRACINO: There was a nurse there all the time.
CASTLE: So they provided medical care for you?
N. SARRACINO: Oh yes, right.
CASTLE: That's a big deal. I mean, that's important. They really did -- sounds
like they thought of most of the stuff that you needed.N. SARRACINO: Yes. She was there whenever, I guess, somebody needed medical
care. Like somebody got hurt, maybe, at the shop doing something, and then she was there.FUREY: When did you become involved in the Four Winds Club?
N. SARRACINO: The Four Winds? Gosh, I don't even remember what year it was.
FUREY: After the war, or before?
00:50:00N. SARRACINO: That was before the war. A lot of the Indian people were there at
that Four Winds.CASTLE: What kind of club was it? Was it like a social club?
N. SARRACINO: It was just kind of like a get-together; I guess you would call it
social club.CASTLE: Different tribes?
N. SARRACINO: Yes, different tribes go there.
CASTLE: From all over.
N. SARRACINO: From all over.
CASTLE: Like Oakland and San Francisco and the whole thing.
N. SARRACINO: Yes, because at that time they were starting to get -- you know,
relocating people.CASTLE: I see. I see.
N. SARRACINO: I don't remember what year that was, because they had an Indian
Consortium Office in San Pablo.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Yes, that was later. That was in the sixties.
N. SARRACINO: That was where Terry worked. When people came in, she would be the
one to look for jobs for them, my oldest daughter.CASTLE: Okay.
N. SARRACINO: Yes, and they had several people working there.
00:51:00CASTLE: That was part of the relocation?
N. SARRACINO: Right. That was the Indian Consortium Office, they called it.
Different tribes come in, you know, the relocated people. But Santa Fe is not a relocated area. It's just, I guess, from different tribes.CASTLE: So the Laguna and Acoma [phonetic], you all had been there prior to the
war for a long time. You really established community life there.N. SARRACINO: Right.
CASTLE: And then the new relocatees coming in, you were able -- did you remember
kind of feeling like the wise ones? I mean, did you ever help people a little bit get adjusted to urban life, or offer advice or anything?N. SARRACINO: Well, that was the relocation office part of the thing, that they
placed people, like they looked for apartments for them, or they would help them 00:52:00with whatever they might need to have. Yes. But my husband and I worked with the Urban Indian Tribe Resource Center in Oakland.CASTLE: Did you.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Yes, when they first started.
N. SARRACINO: They had started that.
CASTLE: What did you do for them, or with them?
N. SARRACINO: Well, there's kids that had problems with their parents, maybe, or
maybe both parents drank and they were having problems in school, or somebody else might be having problems at school with some whatever, you know. But they would send you out, but what you mostly find, I always will say, just like the teen center down here when we worked with them, is that it's not all the student's fault. Sometimes it's the teacher's fault. That's what you might find out. That's what we find out. It's not all the student's fault. It's sometimes the teacher's fault. There's always a problem for a child like that, I guess. 00:53:00And then there were a couple of doctors that come in. What did they call these people?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: The psychologists?
N. SARRACINO: Yes. They come in and they talk to the kids, you know, and then,
of course, you know, each one maybe has a different problem from the other.CASTLE: Was there a sense that some of the problems had to do with adjusting to
urban life?N. SARRACINO: No, no, no.
CASTLE: Or maybe people -- well, you tell me. Because what I was wondering is
that, you know, if you're coming into a school system, and you're talking about the teachers being responsible, too, you know, there's kind of problems 00:54:00sometimes understanding different cultures. Right? So sometimes the teachers might not give full consideration for where the student's coming from, and what that student's needs are. Am I making stuff up, or do you know if that had anything to do with some of the conflicts?N. SARRACINO: No, I don't think so. No. No, it's probably the problem might be
at home, or the problem might be at school. And then you have to go out and find out what the problem is at school. And then sometimes it's the parents' fault at home, because both parents might be drinking and just going to parties, you know.NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Or maybe the parents didn't adjust to --
CASTLE: Yes, that's what I wondered.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: But they also, when the first Title IV Program -- at that
00:55:00time it was called Title IV -- they were also part of that committee, too, as grandparents. My dad helped with singing, with their dancing, and my mother, Nellie, helped with the shawl making. That was later, though. But they still participated in a lot of things when they were in Richmond.CASTLE: I guess part of what I'm really interested to know myself, and it would
be important for people, is just the fact that you lived in the colony, and you built this really rather remarkable strong life there, and then the relocation program is what most people know about, when they think of native people moving to urban areas. And so it's very interesting to know the relationship between maybe what you were able to offer from your wisdom and your experience, having been in the urban area before, to all these parents coming in on the relocation 00:56:00program with families.N. SARRACINO: Well, I won't really know too much about that, because that was
their program.CASTLE: I see.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: But I think like when they went to start the powwows and
stuff, and when they got to meet more of those people, then I guess just by talking they probably suggested to them, "Well, did you know that there's a Friendship House? Did you know that there's other places that there's powwows? Or you can call the Friendship House," and let them know that there's a listing of stuff. I'm pretty sure that's how it went, because then people started like -- you know, the people they ran into, they would let them know, like, what was around that they could go to.CASTLE: Yes, just that kind of word of mouth, I wondered.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Just let me ask her -- how did you meet the Jacksons?
N. SARRACINO: Well, they used to come to the village and visit.
00:57:00NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: But how did they know the village was there?
N. SARRACINO: Probably from the Oakland Friendship House.
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: The Jacksons are one of the families that's been there for
a long time. And then my aunt, she read an article, huh? It was in the newspaper, and her husband said, "Look. There's Indians here." And she was Ethel Rudall [phonetic]. She didn't know that they were there until my uncle read a paper one day and it said that there was a group of native people that lived in Richmond.N. SARRACINO: That was there; that first started, that Friendship House. But she
won't say who had offered that money to buy that Friendship House.CASTLE: She wouldn't say?
N. SARRACINO: No, she won't say.
CASTLE: It's a mystery?
N. SARRACINO: Yes.
CASTLE: Well, the Oakland -- the Friendship House has been there for so long.
00:58:00N. SARRACINO: Oh, right.
CASTLE: It's such an important part of the community, and it kind of comes out
of your experience.N. SARRACINO: They always change different people to be on their staff, you
know. Of course I was on there the last year we were there, but I had to tell that I couldn't be longer on their staff, because we were ready to come home. But I think I was only on the board for about maybe, oh, about maybe three, four months, something like that, because I remember we fired one man from [unclear]. And the man over here at the Rainbow won't believe me. He say, "Oh no, Mrs. Sarracino," he says, "not Alfred Algee [phonetic]."And I says, "You don't know Alfred Algee."
He says, "Yeah, I know Alfred Algee."
00:59:00"He's a Pomo," I said. I know him. Then when we went to Council on Aging in
Carlsbad, Giuseppe and I went down to breakfast early, and him and Paul Pina [phonetic] were sitting at the table, and when I got my tray I asked them, "You mind if I join you guys?" I said to him."Oh no, Mrs. Sarracino, sit down," they say. "So I want to apologize to you," he
said to me."For what?" I asked him.
"Remember you told me about Alfred Algee?"
I said, "Oh yeah." I said, "What about him?"
"Well, he finally got fired in Albuquerque on Council on Aging."
"I told you so," I said.
CASTLE: You'd known.
N. SARRACINO: Of course. You want me to show you my reports? I still have them
at home.CASTLE: Keep the evidence? Was there any kind of wrapping up questions that you
01:00:00have that you can think of?N. SARRACINO: You're going to miss your flight.
FUREY: Do you like telling history like this?
N. SARRACINO: No.
FUREY: Or was it difficult?
NARRATOR'S DAUGHTER: Without the camera, she doesn't like --
N. SARRACINO: Not before a camera, sir.
FUREY: Okay, turn it off.
[end of interview]