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http://ohms.lib.berkeley.edu%2Fviewer.php%3Fcachefile%3DInterview42446.xml#segment1397
Keywords: Classes with group of women engineers; Climate was different; Columbus, Ohio; Commute with other women; Curtiss-Wright Aircraft; Fifth model of Helldiver; Huge campus; Lived with other women; Men didn't think they could do work; Men left campus; Navy plane that carries one bomb; Only white engineers; Professors afraid of women; Rationing didn't impact her; Transfer to University of Minnesota; Worked at Curtiss-Wright Factor; Worked in landing gear and hydraulics
Subjects: Community and Identity; Rosie the Riveter World War II Home Front
http://ohms.lib.berkeley.edu%2Fviewer.php%3Fcachefile%3DInterview42446.xml#segment4889
Keywords: Became statistician after college; Couldn't work while pregnant; Did survey maps; Exciting; Got married and had child; Graduating; Graphing software; Moved to California; Sterns Roger Manufacturing and Engineering; Worked for Douglas Aircraft; Worked for Prouty Brothers Engineering Company
Subjects: Community and Identity; Rosie the Riveter World War II Home Front
REDMAN: All right, today is, gosh what is the date today, March 28?
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: March 28, 2011, and I'm here in Davis, California with Louise McClain,
and I'd like to ask you an easy question. Would you begin by telling me your full name and where you were born?MCCLAIN: Louise Evelyn McClain, and I was born in Denver, Colorado.
REDMAN: Oh, you were born in Denver, okay. How long did you live in Denver?
MCCLAIN: I lived in Denver really all my life until I was married, which would
have been when I was twenty-five, except for during World War II when I worked in Columbus, Ohio.REDMAN: Okay, okay. So can you tell me about, I'm sorry, can you remind me what
00:01:00year you were born?MCCLAIN: Nineteen twenty-four.
REDMAN: Nineteen twenty-four, okay, so when you were fairly young, the Great
Depression started.MCCLAIN: Oh, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, so do you have some early recollections of the Great Depression in Denver?
MCCLAIN: Not really. It didn't really hit us until about 1932. My father was a
bricklayer, and lo and behold there was no building going on, so it hit.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so, yeah, can you tell me a little bit about your parents,
what they were like. You mentioned your father was a bricklayer, and did your mother have work as well, or--?MCCLAIN: No, she was strictly a stay at home mother.
REDMAN: Okay, and what were they like as people? What do you remember about them?
MCCLAIN: Wonderful, my mother was an amazing person. She was a little lady, and
they asked her if she would go around collecting for Red Cross, and so she 00:02:00decided to do it, and she even walked in the neighborhood bar, [laughs] this little bitty lady in the neighborhood bar seeing if they wouldn't donate. She had more donations than anyone else in our district.REDMAN: Is that right? Wow, okay, okay.
MCCLAIN: My father was a very quiet man, very much, but he did teach me a lot of
things and some of the old songs like, I don't remember. I'll think of it later maybe.REDMAN: Okay, and did you have any siblings?
MCCLAIN: Yes, I had one sister.
REDMAN: What's her name?
MCCLAIN: Edna.
REDMAN: Okay, so then tell me a little bit about what it was like to grow up in
Denver. Do you have some favorite recollections? Did your family live in the 00:03:00city of Denver proper, or did you live just outside of Denver?MCCLAIN: No, we lived in the city of Denver proper in south Denver. Denver was
very I'll have to say segregated, south Denver, east Denver, north Denver, and so forth and we lived in south Denver, which was lily white, and most of the Mexicans and Negroes lived in west Denver. There were some blacks in east Denver, and also some very rich people. Some fairly wealthy people in south Denver, but not as many.REDMAN: But by and large the different neighborhoods were segregated.
00:04:00MCCLAIN: Yes, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, then what was your elementary school like?
MCCLAIN: Well, it went only through sixth grade.
REDMAN: Okay, and I assume that was segregated as well. Is that correct?
MCCLAIN: No. We had probably one Jewish person, no blacks, a few Mexicans,
that's it.REDMAN: Okay, so there might have been some different groups going to school
with you when you were young.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, so what do you remember about going to school each day? What was
that like?MCCLAIN: I loved it. I really enjoyed school. My sister almost scared me to
death when I said something about, "We're going to take some kind of a test 00:05:00tomorrow, it's a city-wide test." And she said, "A city-wide test!" "Oh," she said, "That's terrible." So when the teacher passed out the papers I started to cry, and she came around and said, "What's the matter?" I said, "I can't do this, this is a city-wide test." She said, "Let's read the first one," and it was very simple, and I knew it, so that ended that.REDMAN: So how old were you and your sister at that time?
MCCLAIN: I was six, and she was nine.
REDMAN: Okay, so she had a little influence over being able to scare you a
little bit.MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, yes.
REDMAN: Play tricks, and okay. You said you enjoyed school. What was your
favorite subject, or what were your favorite things about school? What did you enjoy about it?MCCLAIN: I think I enjoyed most of the curriculum. I enjoyed gym, too, and I
00:06:00don't know, it's hard to say which--REDMAN: But you enjoyed basically every subject.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, and then how about the other children? What were some of your
early memories, or do you have any favorite early recollections about the other kids at your school in Denver?MCCLAIN: Well, one of my best friends, we went through kindergarten through
third grade, and then I skipped a half grade ahead and she didn't, but we kept in touch really all our lives. She's no longer living now, but--REDMAN: Okay, but you made some good friends.
MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay. So then did you then transitioned into a junior high school?
MCCLAIN: Yes, seven, eighth and ninth grade.
REDMAN: Okay. Was that different from the elementary school in any--
00:07:00MCCLAIN: Well, of course, we had changed rooms for every subject, and it was
much larger, I think around 700 children in the junior high, and I didn't like social, well, yes, I did. I think I still liked it all pretty much.REDMAN: Okay, okay. How about your teachers? What were they like? Were they
particularly strict, or were they lenient and friendly, or how do you remember your teachers?MCCLAIN: Mostly lenient and friendly. There were some I remember in particular,
Miss McGucken, Mrs. McGucken, who was just wonderful, and she would assign us to 00:08:00go to a I think it was a care home for children who had no place to go after school until both parents got home in a very poor district, and she made sure that there were some boys going with us, and not just all girls.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so you would volunteer then with these younger kids.
MCCLAIN: Oh, yes.
REDMAN: All right, excellent. Now tell me did your parents encourage you to stay
in school and to continue on going through the high school and maybe beyond, and how far along in school did your parents go?MCCLAIN: My parents both went through eighth grade. My father would have loved
to have gone longer. As a matter of fact, he purposely flunked eighth grade so he could stay in school again, but his father was an Englishman, a brick mason 00:09:00in England, and his oldest son had to be a mason, and there was no point in going any further than eighth grade. So my father, he went ahead and was a brick mason, which was a pity. It was a good brain wasted, I believe. He did beautiful woodwork on carved small chests, made his own workbench, and you could have put it in your living room and been proud of it. It was a little sad. My mother was very poor, and they really needed her to go to work when she got through eighth grade. 00:10:00REDMAN: Okay, so both of them had left school fairly early on, but encouraged
you to continue your studies.MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, yes.
REDMAN: Do you think it was in part because they wanted themselves to continue on--?
MCCLAIN: Yes. I'm sure it was for my father anyway.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then tell me about what a typical day would have been
like growing up with you and your parents. When would your father leave for work? Do have any sort of memories of what your mother did for chores, or what things were like around the house?MCCLAIN: Immaculate. My father left, they were on a fairly rigid schedule. He
left I think around 6:30 in the morning, and always my mother had packed his 00:11:00lunch for him. We left for school about 9:00, and we came home for lunch. We were very close to the grade school. We came home for lunch, and she was always there. Oh, once in a while a neighbor would come in, or we'd go to the neighbor's house for lunch, and their daughter would come to our house sometimes, they'd trade, babysitting in other words.REDMAN: Okay, so then can you tell me did you have a job at all? What was your
first job? Was your first job working in defense or did you work at all when you were in junior high or high school at all?MCCLAIN: High school, I lied about my age, you had to be sixteen to work, and I
lied about it, it was on my Social Security card for a long time, but I worked 00:12:00at Penney's as a sales girl.REDMAN: Okay, is that right? How old were you, were you fifteen or fourteen?
MCCLAIN: Fifteen.
REDMAN: Okay, but you told them you were sixteen, okay, and this got on your
Social Security card.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, oh, that's a funny story. All right, so then how did you like
working at Penney's? What was that like?MCCLAIN: It was all right. I had to learn that some of the sales ladies would
steal the sales from you anytime they could.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: They probably needed the money, but--
REDMAN: So you were paid on commission.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, partly.
REDMAN: Okay, that's interesting in the era of the Great Depression working at a
department store. What was that like? Were people buying nice things, or were people buying kind of everyday things at Penney's? What sort of what was that--? 00:13:00MCCLAIN: Pretty much every day. I had one man customer that wanted to get his
wife a purse, and, of course, I showed him the most expensive one we had, and he bought it.REDMAN: Okay. So you'd sort of suggest this is what purse your wife my like, and--
MCCLAIN: I think that he told me that she was a redhead, and I picked out a
brown purse, but I kind of thought that's not very nice.REDMAN: Okay, so did you get pretty good at that job, or did you like it, or--?
MCCLAIN: It was just a summer job.
REDMAN: Okay, so you were a little indifferent towards the type of work and,
okay. So then tell me about completing high school. What year did you graduate, do you recall?MCCLAIN: Nineteen forty-one.
REDMAN: Wow, okay, so December of 1941 would that have been your senior year of
00:14:00high school when Pearl Harbor happened?MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so almost before graduation.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: So tell me about what that was like, to be a senior in high school and
to have Pearl Harbor happen. Do you recall the day that Pearl Harbor happened?MCCLAIN: I recall quite vividly. It was a Sunday, and my father always listened
to Keltenborn on the news, and I said, "Do we have to listen to him? He never has anything to say anyway," Smart aleck, about then it came on that we had been bombed.REDMAN: Wow, okay.
MCCLAIN: So I remembered that, and it made a huge difference in school. A lot of
boys were starting to enlist, or many of them joined ROTC. It was different. 00:15:00REDMAN: Did a lot of the young men leave immediately? Would they have left in
December of 1941, or did most people in your school until after graduation to enlist?MCCLAIN: Waited until after graduation.
REDMAN: Okay, so what about the young women who were graduating from high
school? What were many of them doing?MCCLAIN: I think maybe a few more went into nursing. I don't remember anyone
joining the Army, Navy, or I'm not even sure you could join the Marine Corps.REDMAN: Right, yeah, the--
MCCLAIN: But their lives changed a lot less.
00:16:00REDMAN: Okay, okay, now, tell me about, did you grow up attending church
services at all?MCCLAIN: Yes. My parents didn't. My mother sent us to Sunday School, and we went
to the Presbyterian Church.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so what was that like then growing up and attending Sunday
School, and then your parents, did they have sort of mixed feelings about church, or--?MCCLAIN: Well, I think my mother missed it. I don't think my father, I don't
know why, but he never, I mean if somebody got married in a church, he went, but other than that, he didn't.REDMAN: Okay, okay, but they thought it was important for you to attend Sunday School?
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, do you know why? Did they just think that it was an important part
00:17:00of your education, or--?MCCLAIN: No, I don't know. My mother also wanted me to be married in a church.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so there was some--
MCCLAIN: Yeah, she missed it.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then I'm curious, did you have any friends or relatives
that signed up for the military right after Pearl Harbor?MCCLAIN: I don't remember any.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, and then any friends or anything like that who were
immediately affected by the war, it seems like?MCCLAIN: No.
REDMAN: Not right away.
MCCLAIN: One or two of the folks did join the Army as I recall. I had forgotten
that, but they did.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then tell me about what your high school graduation was
00:18:00like. Do you recall graduating from high school or anything surrounding that?MCCLAIN: Oh, yes.
REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about that.
MCCLAIN: Well, it was held in the downtown auditorium. My graduating class had
over 700 students.REDMAN: So it was a large school.
MCCLAIN: Large school, yes. The girls all wore long white dresses, and the
fellows suits. Afterwards several of my girlfriends, their parents and my parents all went out to get something to eat.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so the mood was still upbeat despite the fact that there was
00:19:00war that had started. Now tell me about then what happened to you after graduating high school.MCCLAIN: I started Denver University right away.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, and what were you studying at Denver?
MCCLAIN: Mathematics.
REDMAN: Interesting, okay, so why did you choose, now it seemed like you enjoyed
all different types of classes as a high school student, so what attracted you to mathematics?MCCLAIN: I guess, well I know, I just got to thinking about it, but that was my
easiest subject and that I did enjoy it, so I decided to major in math.REDMAN: Okay, okay, and what types of things do you remember learning, or what
types of classes do you remember taking early on at Denver?MCCLAIN: One education course that I fell asleep. It was at 8:00 o'clock in the
00:20:00morning, and the professor just covered the book, the chapter that you were supposed to have read anyway, and he might as well as said it word for word. He was terrible.REDMAN: Okay, okay. But most of your professors were--
MCCLAIN: Yes, excellent.
REDMAN: Excellent, okay. Tell me a little bit about what it was like to be on a
university campus when my understanding is that many of the men would have left by that time.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: So was that a little bit of a different feeling?
MCCLAIN: Oh, yes. There were a lot less men. But we also had Japanese people
that had been in the camps that they could go to college.REDMAN: Okay, so there were Japanese Americans in your classes at Denver.
00:21:00MCCLAIN: I didn't happen to have any. There weren't many of them. I do remember
that one boy, we called him Sunny because he was always smiling, and he got a job cleaning the astronomy building, which wasn't used much anymore. They didn't really have a good telescope. The FBI found out there was a two-way radio there and said, "He's got to go." The two heads of the math department, they used to take turns being heads decided that's terrible. He couldn't get to Japan with that radio anyway, so they talked to the FBI and said, "How about if we take the 00:22:00radio out." They said, "Fine." So he kept his job.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so there was, one of the things that I've heard is that
there was a lot of suspicion about the Japanese at that time, but it's hard to kind of underestimate how people were talking about, oh, the Japanese as being this sort of group to be feared in the United States during the war, and it sounds like the FBI sort of played into that a little bit.MCCLAIN: Yes, very much, yeah.
REDMAN: So did you at the time have any feelings about the Japanese being
interred, or was that sort of your first--?MCCLAIN: I didn't think it was fair, but I don't think it bothered me. I think
it's bothered me more in later years that they were.REDMAN: Okay, but at the time you maybe you didn't ponder it quite a much.
MCCLAIN: No. I was awfully glad that they stepped in in Sunny's case.
REDMAN: Okay, so in the case that affected you personally, you were happy to
00:23:00have him on campus, and it sounds like he was a--MCCLAIN: Yes, thought it was ridiculous.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so tell me a little bit about then so you continued on at
Denver and then did you graduate from Denver University, or did you leave for work first?MCCLAIN: Well, I left, I went through my freshman year and started my sophomore
year, and then this program with Curtiss-Wright Aircraft came up, and I looked into it. It seemed like an awfully good program, and by then the campus was changing a lot, lots of the men were leaving, and so I signed up for the Curtiss-Wright program. They took 700 girls, their engineering departments were 00:24:00depleting because of the draft, and sent approximately 100 girls to seven different colleges. This gets into my whole life during the war practically. It was a very good program. I ended up at the University of Minnesota. They also used Ohio State, Iowa State, Purdue, Rensselaer. I wanted to go to Rensselaer but I didn't get there. I didn't have, they wanted everyone to have two years of math or science, I'd only had a year and one quarter in my sophomore year, and so I did go. They paid all our tuition, our board and room. 00:25:00REDMAN: Do you remember how you found out about this program?
MCCLAIN: A friend of mine had heard about it and told me, and, of course, she
was excited because that was a Big Ten school.REDMAN: Right, yeah, yeah. I want to ask one more question about Denver, you
mentioned that the campus was changing. Then after maybe '42, on into '43 on your sophomore year, can you tell me a little bit about, so obviously many of the men were leaving. How did that change sort of feeling on campus? Did you sort of, you had a need it seems like to do something else.MCCLAIN: Probably. Social things when there weren't enough men to go around
weren't as fun.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Yeah. I guess there was a popular song around that era that joked that
00:26:00all of the men were either too old or too young, that for the girls to go to dances--MCCLAIN: Yeah, I don't remember the song.
REDMAN: Okay, that sounds about right, okay.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, oh, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so you ended up at the University of Minnesota taking
classes and Curtiss-Wright through this program was paying for the tuition.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Do you remember then your recollections of, you were on the Minneapolis campus.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, and do you remember what that was like?
MCCLAIN: Well, it's a huge campus. We entered, our whole schedule was different
from a regular campus because we went to school all day, for one thing, and for ten months straight. We entered I think the last of January or first of February 00:27:00that year.REDMAN: In '43?
MCCLAIN: In '43, yeah.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Went through the summer, oh, and they paid for our transportation, too,
from Denver, from wherever we came. There were girls from all over.REDMAN: Okay, so then you'd take ten months' worth of fairly intensive, or very
intensive it sounds like, math and engineering courses or what--?MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, yes, drafting and strength of materials.
REDMAN: Wow, okay, and was it entirely women in the course?
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Entirely.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then you would take all of your classes together with
this group of women over the course of ten months.MCCLAIN: Yes. We were divided into four groups, depending on where the, what
we'd had and so forth.REDMAN: Okay. So did you just show them your transcripts, or tell them about
00:28:00what you were interested in, or do you know kind of how people would get funneled into some of these particular channels?MCCLAIN: No, I don't. I really don't remember.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so you'd maybe say that you were a math major and you'd show
them your list of courses that you'd taken or you'd explain what you'd taken and they'd put you into a class or something like that?MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then what were the professors like that were teaching you there?
MCCLAIN: Some of them were almost a little afraid of us. They hadn't had many
women at all.REDMAN: Oh, wow, okay, and then suddenly you've got a room full of women, an
auditorium full of women.MCCLAIN: Most of them were just wonderful to us. In fact, I had dropped calculus
when I left. I'd started that quarter, but I hadn't gotten very far, were 00:29:00getting to integral calculus, which is quite hard, and I dropped it, and my professor said, "Oh, I hate to see you drop it. Why don't you just send me in the assignments, and he gave them to me, and he said if you do that I can give you a grade." So I did, and I got into trouble when I was at Minnesota on the assignment. I walked into Professor {Turreton's?} math class with my long face. [laughter]REDMAN: Right, yeah.
MCCLAIN: And he said, "Is there a problem?" I said, "There are a lot of
problems, and I can't do them," and explained that I was going to quit. But I just couldn't carry that, and he said, "Oh, don't do that. I'll help you."REDMAN: Wow.
MCCLAIN: He helped me pass that calculus course.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so some of the math was quite challenging.
MCCLAIN: Yes, it was.
REDMAN: Okay, so trying to push some of the limits of what you were able to--
00:30:00MCCLAIN: Well, this was the course in Denver.
REDMAN: Okay, oh, okay.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, so, but no, I don't think they were that challenging actually.
REDMAN: Okay, when you got into the classes at Minnesota they were fairly
straightforward in this program.MCCLAIN: Yes, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, now how about some of the other girls that were with you? Were
they mostly college women like yourself who then had left their programs in order to do this?MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then tell me a little bit about, Denver does have a
fairly mild climate at 300 days of sunshine a year, then going to Minneapolis in January or February of 1943, was that a little bit of a shock?MCCLAIN: Yes, it was. You had to walk on the sidewalks because there were banks
four feet high on either side. 00:31:00REDMAN: Ice and snow, yeah.
MCCLAIN: That was a funny thing there; they were also tons of servicemen there.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Navy bakers, meteorologists, everybody, and they marched to classes.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: If you happened to be walking to classes, you just had to stand still
when they went by you, so there were about four or five of us walking together, and then here came somebody, I'm not sure, I think it was a meteorologist, and they got all through us and their sergeant or whatever he was just couldn't resist, he called, "To the rear, march," and took them back through.REDMAN: That's so funny. So people were still having a little bit of a good time
on campus, okay.MCCLAIN: Oh, sure, yeah.
REDMAN: So, yeah, what was that like having all of those servicemen around on
campus when you were in the midst, because they were taking classes there as 00:32:00well, too, is that correct?MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, but not necessarily in your program.
MCCLAIN: No, no, not at all.
REDMAN: Okay, so they were completely separated but taking classes on the campus
at the same time. So did you feel like a normal college student there for a little while, or did you feel more or less like you were in this program on campus?MCCLAIN: I think we felt like college students.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: I think the meteorologist, their leader, whoever he was, came over and
said, "Could we arrange some blind dates?" So we did, and it worked out.REDMAN: Okay, so every once in a while you'd go out on dates or your friends
would go out on dates with people on campus.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, that's wonderful. So I wanted to ask then so you finished this
program, so that would have been maybe in the summertime or a little later? 00:33:00MCCLAIN: A little later, almost Christmas time.
REDMAN: Almost Christmas time, okay. So then, I'm sorry, did you say there was
an eleven month program?MCCLAIN: Ten month. Ten month.
REDMAN: Ten month, okay, so maybe from February to December in '43. So then what
happens to you then after you complete this program?MCCLAIN: Well, they paid for our train fare back home, and for most of us it
worked out that we were there for Christmas, not for all. They wanted to space the girls going in to the engineering department, all set for Curtiss-Wright at Columbus, Ohio, which made the Helldiver, which was a scout bomber, SB2C5, and also were working on a little scout plane. What was my train of thought? 00:34:00REDMAN: So you took the train back to Denver for Christmas. Were you one of the
ones that made it back for Christmas that year?MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, and what was the mood at Christmas like then seeing your parents
after having been away in Minneapolis for some time and then about to leave and go to Columbus, Ohio?MCCLAIN: I think upbeat.
REDMAN: You were happy to see them, okay.
MCCLAIN: Maybe they were happy to see me go. No, I think they were just awfully
glad I got to come back for Christmas, but they thought it was a good program.REDMAN: Okay, so they were proud of your decision to take part in it.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Did you see it already as even before going into the factory, did you
see it as part of the war effort, or were you thinking more about furthering 00:35:00your education?MCCLAIN: No, it was part of the war effort.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so had the war not been going on, you probably would have
stayed at Denver.MCCLAIN: Right.
REDMAN: Okay, okay. So then following Christmas then you and the other girls who
had completed this program went to the Curtiss-Wright Factory at Columbus, Ohio, is that correct?MCCLAIN: That's correct, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, so what were some of your impressions of signing up for the job
and officially arriving in Columbus, what was that like?MCCLAIN: A little hard. I think that's where we got some resentment from the men
that were there. They didn't think we could do the work, and some of them were wonderful, but some could be a little nasty.REDMAN: Okay, okay, yeah. One of the questions I wanted to ask is how the men
and women interacted because I've gotten a number of stories that there was 00:36:00either sexism or hanky panky or all different types of interaction, friendships or positive relationships, but most of those people I talked to had been on the line, on the assembly line. But from my understanding were you guys in the same building as the assembly line, or were you working on engineering plans and drafting completely separate from--?MCCLAIN: The engineering room was completely separate, but you could go out on
the line any time you wanted to take a walk through or something.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: You couldn't, to go out on a flight deck, you had to have a permit from
the Chief Engineer. I'll tell you more about that later.REDMAN: Sure, yeah. So then some of the engineers, some of the male engineers,
00:37:00resented this new group of young women, okay, and how did that manifest itself? You said some of them could be a little nasty. Would they say anything in particular?MCCLAIN: One I remember was talking to the draftsmen or the head, whose table
was right in front of mine, and I don't remember what he said, but it was very insulting, and I was so mad I just slammed my pencil down. He and I became quite friendly friends after a while. [laughter]REDMAN: Okay, okay.
MCCLAIN: I was mad.
REDMAN: Yeah, that's a good story. I mean at the time that must have been so frustrating.
All right, so we were talking about the one male engineer, but you said that the
two of you actually became pretty good friends eventually. 00:38:00MCCLAIN: Yeah, yeah.
REDMAN: Or a good working relationship.
MCCLAIN: Yes, good working relationship.
REDMAN: Okay, okay.
MCCLAIN: There was some hanky panky. Most of it I didn't know about until later,
and one made me very unhappy. There was a girl in my group, I worked in landing gear and hydraulics, and she was almost totally deaf. She wore two hearing aids, and she could understand men's lower voices and she could understand me pretty well, but I really liked her, and this one married man just took advantage of her loneliness, I felt.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: So it caused a lot of trouble. His wife found out about it, and so
00:39:00forth and so forth.REDMAN: Okay, I've heard some stories about how it was a real challenge for
women who they may have had boyfriends or fiancés or husbands who then went away for war. Did you see any of that, or was that maybe the main story that stuck in your mind as far as loneliness--MCCLAIN: No, one of my very good friend's husband, he wasn't sent overseas yet
but was scheduled to go, and quite a few, we only had one married woman, and her husband was in the service, too. Yes, a lot of them had boyfriends in the service.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: My boyfriend was an engineer, so he was not in the service.
REDMAN: Can you tell me how you met your boyfriend at about that time?
00:40:00MCCLAIN: No, actually I had met him in Denver before I left, yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, and he remained behind in Denver.
MCCLAIN: Well, for about a year longer until, or two years until he graduated,
but then he ended up in Ithaca, New York.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so we can get to that in a bit. I want to ask you about the
engineering room. You had mentioned that you worked in landing gear and hydraulics, and could you just walk me through, draw me a little bit of a picture of the engineering room was like? There would be these large drafting tables, was that correct?MCCLAIN: That's correct.
REDMAN: How large were, I've seen some for ships, engineering rooms for ships
where there would be these massive drafting tables with the entire plan on the ship, and you'd take off your socks and shoes and actually stand on the drafting table. But for planes were they large desks placed around, and how was it 00:41:00divided up, what did the engineering room look like?MCCLAIN: The engineering room was full almost entirely of drafting tables. I was
just looking at my dining table, about that long, but, of course, they tip up.REDMAN: Yeah, so maybe about six feet long.
MCCLAIN: Um hm.
REDMAN: Then they would tip up, okay. Now would there be a section for landing
gear and hydraulics, and a section for the other different components of the plane?MCCLAIN: Yes, but it wasn't, there were no partitions or anything. It was just
that all the landing gear and hydraulics was in about two rows and so forth.REDMAN: Okay. Once a plane has been designed, what would an engineer like you do
at a factory, would you double check to make sure that the designs were being accurately implemented? Or tell me about what an engineer would do? 00:42:00MCCLAIN: Well, when I was there they were on the fifth model of the Helldiver
and were starting to work on the sixth.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: So there was always new work to be done, and on the little scout plane
that was just in the experimental stage and so there was work on that, too.REDMAN: Okay, now I've seen it referred to as well as the hell cat or Helldiver--
MCCLAIN: Correct.
REDMAN: That was used primarily by the Navy, is that correct?
MCCLAIN: Yes, it's a Navy plane entirely.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, and it was meant to carry one or two large bombs.
MCCLAIN: I believe just one large bomb.
REDMAN: Just one large bomb, and it would dive down, it was mainly to be used in
the Pacific, is that right?MCCLAIN: That's correct.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so did you know some of this coming in, what the goals of
the plane were, what it was meant to do? Or did you just sort of learn about 00:43:00what the function of the aircraft was as you were working as an engineer?MCCLAIN: I think just picked it up.
REDMAN: Okay, so people would tell you this thing or the other thing about the
plane, or, okay, let's go back to arriving and signing up for work. Did you sign up for a union at all?MCCLAIN: No, there were very few union people in there, it wasn't, and I didn't
sign up for--REDMAN: Okay, okay, now how about a health care plan? Was there--?
MCCLAIN: No.
REDMAN: Okay, let's turn back, so there was some union activity at the plant.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, but it was pretty limited?
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, so maybe some people were required to sign up for a union, but
00:44:00they didn't actively maybe play a role in the unions or anything like in the plant or maybe just not that you saw, or--MCCLAIN: I know they didn't in the engineering department. Whether they did in
the plant, I don't know.REDMAN: Okay, okay. So then tell me a little bit more about the dynamic in the
engineering room, so what on a day to day basis what sort of thing does someone who is working on drafts of a design of landing gear or hydraulics, what would you do?MCCLAIN: Well, hydraulics, you might be designing a bracket to hold the
spaghetti, we called it, and I was just I think I finally had a junior engineer 00:45:00rating, but I didn't do any of the real design work.REDMAN: Okay, I've heard of frequently the military coming back to many of these
plants and factories, it would seem to make sense that representatives from the Navy would periodically come to the engineering room and say, "These are some of the things that we want to work on on the fifth model or the fourth model of the diver." Would they suggest improvements, or how would that sort of be implemented? How would they improve the plane?MCCLAIN: I think their meeting would be with the Chief Engineer and a few of his
immediate followers. It didn't get down to me, except I'm sure that they came along and said, "We want to change this," and I didn't really wonder why. 00:46:00REDMAN: Okay, so you just saw some of these things as general improvements to--
MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then how did you commute to work each day? What was your
living situation like?MCCLAIN: Oh, I lived with three other women in an apartment, and we were fairly
close to the plant on the outskirts of Columbus really, and one of my lead men gave me a ride every day.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so there was an active share the ride program at the--
MCCLAIN: Oh, definitely, yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, so people would commute together.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, now so you said you lived with three girls who worked at the plant.
MCCLAIN: That's right
REDMAN: Did you guys then share rationing, or how did your rationing work for a
group of young women, you might get so much milk or butter or margarine or, do 00:47:00you recall how that worked? Or did you have a system in your house?MCCLAIN: No, I think we had a great plenty of, I don't remember.
REDMAN: Okay, so do you remember rationing at all?
MCCLAIN: Yes, I do remember, we did want more sugar, but one of the girls that
lived in Columbus, her mother had plenty and shared it with us.REDMAN: So if you maybe didn't have quite enough sugar, you could find someone
who would be able to share a little.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: All right, so let's talk about, we talked a little bit about how the
plant was mixed in terms of gender in the engineering room. How about, do you have sort of a general recollection of how about race? Were there mainly white people who were in the engineering room?MCCLAIN: Yes.
00:48:00REDMAN: Almost exclusively?
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, and then how about on the actual assembly line? Do you recall if
that was--MCCLAIN: I think there were some blacks on there, but not a lot.
REDMAN: Okay, okay.
MCCLAIN: Columbus at that time was awfully close to the South and in their
thinking they were.REDMAN: Okay. I'm sorry, can you move your hand?
So, I'm sorry, you said Columbus was awfully close to the South. So were you
getting a lot of people coming up to Columbus from the South seeking jobs?MCCLAIN: I think there were probably closer jobs than Columbus.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so how about the pay at Curtiss-Wright? Were most people
pretty satisfied with the salaries that they were getting for work? 00:49:00MCCLAIN: I think so.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, and how about yourself? Did you feel like this was a good
paying job, or is that something that wasn't really on your radar or something you weren't paying as much attention to?MCCLAIN: I don't think any of us were paying, the jobs we'd had always been just
summer jobs, and it seemed very good really.REDMAN: Right, so for many of the girls this would have been their first real
permanent job.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so that must have been, to a certain extent do you feel like
people were learning on the job to what extent they could and kind of learning as you go along in the engineering room?MCCLAIN: Oh, yes.
00:50:00REDMAN: Okay, so what sorts of things were you trying to pick up, or what sort
of things were you trying to learn from--MCCLAIN: Well, I really wanted to learn exactly how a hydraulic system worked.
Don't think I ever felt very capable on that. [laughter]REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Then I learned to improve my drafting a great deal.
REDMAN: Okay, did you feel like that was through practice?
MCCLAIN: Yes, mostly practice, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, so you would be asked to draft and redraft some of the small
design changes that were critical to the aircraft, but tell me about what the other sections of the engineering room might have been, so you were working in landing gear and hydraulics. Do you recall what some of the other engineers were 00:51:00working on?MCCLAIN: I surely should. Well, the bomb bay and the bomb equipment for holding
the bomb, and, goodness, electrical systems, and the whole, the firewall and the sides of the plane.REDMAN: So that's a pretty diverse range of jobs, going from bomb equipment to
the hydraulics, so were you assigned to landing gear and hydraulics, or was that something that you chose, or--?MCCLAIN: No, I was assigned to it.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, and how do you feel like that compared as a job to these other
00:52:00sorts of jobs that some of the other engineers were doing?MCCLAIN: About the same, for the girls, I mean for the cadets we were called.
REDMAN: Okay. Oh, that's interesting. Do you know why they called you cadets?
MCCLAIN: It started with the schooling. We were the Curtiss-Wright cadets.
REDMAN: Curtiss-Wright cadets, okay, okay. So can you tell me then do you
remember, I'll close on this question for this tape, so most of the senior engineers then would have been men.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Was it almost exclusively men who were already in the plant who then
were at a higher rank than these young women engineers who came in through this Curtiss-Wrights cadets program, and that must have had, we've talked a little 00:53:00bit about the relationships that that may have brought about or there might have been some resentment. Can you just comment a little bit more on what, were some of the men equal, maybe some of the men were quite gruff, but were some of the men pretty easy to work with, or did they like having young people working with them, or--?MCCLAIN: I think most of them did. My final job was to draw the final hydraulic
system on the Helldiver. The engineers cannot place every hydraulic tube. It has to go to the experimental shop because it's, there's just too many of them and trying to get in a narrow space and all, so that we had to do the final job on 00:54:00that. I worked with one of the engineers on that, and he was great.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so by and large most of them were supportive and--
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, well with that I'll change the tape and ask some other questions.
REDMAN: So Louise my last question was again about how the men and the women
interacted at the plant. Do you have any other thoughts on that as far as, were some of them more like mentors to these young women engineers?MCCLAIN: Yes, yes.
REDMAN: Now how about, it's interesting to me because prior to the war it would
have been fairly uncommon for a woman to become a professional engineer. Is that correct? 00:55:00MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Even after the war many women left their jobs and the sort of popular
notion was that many women were leaving their jobs as Rosie the Riveter and then going back to the home or buying a house in the suburbs. Was it ever your intention to stay with engineering, or did you think that most of the women who were in your program wanted to stay in math and science careers, or did they, did you get the impression that a lot of people were doing this as part of the war effort and they knew it was a temporary sort of position?MCCLAIN: Yes, they knew it was sort of temporary, and I think, I know I did,
after the war I went back to Denver University. I still majored in math.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: But didn't do the engineering.
00:56:00REDMAN: Okay, so tell me then about, we'll get back in a minute to your work in
the plant because I do want to talk more about that, but in your actual work as an engineer and then going back to Denver University and studying math rather than engineering, did you just get kind of a taste for engineering and decide that's not exactly what you wanted to do or wanted to study, or how did that sort of work?MCCLAIN: I really, it was a matter of wanting to get through college.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: And I--
REDMAN: And math came easy to you.
MCCLAIN: And math came easy, and I don't think I ever wanted to be an engineer really.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so for you then as well did you think of your work as an
00:57:00engineer at Curtiss-Wright as a temporary wartime position?MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so did the plant ever have any war bond drives?
MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, yes.
REDMAN: Do you recall, can you tell me a little bit about what that was like?
MCCLAIN: They did very well, I don't remember any figures or anything for, but
yeah, but we had lots of them as I recall.REDMAN: Okay, so how about yourself? Did you buy war bonds at that time?
MCCLAIN: Oh, yes.
REDMAN: And did that come out of your salary, or did you purchase them just kind
of as you went along.MCCLAIN: Purchased as we went along, well, there was always as I recall a place
or person to see if you wanted to get one any time at all it was.REDMAN: Okay, now how did you, so tell me then about if you're working mainly at
the drafting table, you said that periodically engineers could go down and take 00:58:00a look at what was going on in the assembly line, is that correct?MCCLAIN: I think mainly on their lunch hour I think.
REDMAN: Okay, and how about you, did you ever go down to the assembly line and
watch these planes being put together.MCCLAIN: Yes, I did a couple of times.
REDMAN: Okay, what are your recollections about that?
MCCLAIN: It was the first time I saw a Rosie the Riveter.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: It was terribly noisy.
REDMAN: Oh, really, okay.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, between the rivet guns and all the other equipment, it was noisy.
REDMAN: Yeah, what were your impressions of these young women, women of all ages
I guess that were working on these assembly lines, the Rosie and Riveters?MCCLAIN: Most of them worked quite hard obviously, and some of them seemed a
00:59:00little rough or tough, but I didn't really know any of them so--REDMAN: Okay, okay, now I know at the, I've done one interview with a woman who
worked in a P37 plant in Burbank, and she mentioned that workers were divided into crews working on the body of the plane, and then they had two additional crews working on the wings. So they'd have a riveter on one side, a riveter on the other side, and then maybe a riveter who was working on the body of the plane along with a welder, maybe divided up as they assembled the plane on the way through. Do you recall how the line was set up at all at the plant?MCCLAIN: I do remember that there were I would guess, and it isn't a large
plane, the Helldiver. I would guess there would be a half dozen workers on it, three on one side and three on the other. 01:00:00REDMAN: Okay, and do you recall, so definitely there were riveters with rivet
guns, and then were there also welders?MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so these crews made up of riveters and welders would work on
a different side of the plane maybe for a number of hours at a time, okay.MCCLAIN: I think so, and on a wing, for instance.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so when you walked through the plant in particular, did you
pay any special attention to how the landing gear and hydraulics were actually assembled?MCCLAIN: I never saw the landing gear actually go on.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: So no, I did see the bomb bay and see them testing it to up and down.
01:01:00REDMAN: Right, yeah, to make sure it actually opens.
MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so you mentioned it being quite loud, and it must have been
a quite different environment in the engineering room.MCCLAIN: Yes, it was not quiet, but compared to the line it was very quiet.
REDMAN: Okay, so there was maybe a lot more vocal noise, a lot of people talking
at any one time?MCCLAIN: Oh, yeah.
REDMAN: Okay. How many people did the engineering room hold at any given time,
do you know how, can you describe how large it was?MCCLAIN: It was very large. I would guess at any given time there were at least
a hundred people.REDMAN: A hundred people, wow, okay, so quite a number of people working on
these two planes in particular for Curtiss-Wright.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, go ahead.
MCCLAIN: Well, that also didn't include the engine. The engine was the plane
01:02:00moved elsewhere to Pratt Whitney, I believe, to get an engine on it.REDMAN: Do you know where abouts that was?
MCCLAIN: No.
REDMAN: Where Pratt Whitney was? Okay, so it would go somewhere else to have an
engine placed in it.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Wow, that's incredible, okay, okay, so did you get the impression that
throughout the entire duration of the war, so you arrived then in late '43 or early '44 is that correct?MCCLAIN: That's correct.
REDMAN: And then worked there through the end of the war.
MCCLAIN: Yes, and a couple of months beyond even.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so one of the things I'd like to ask is that, I've seen in
some places or heard that towards the end of the war when it became maybe a little clear that the United States was on the side that was going to ultimately win the war, some people started to leave their jobs at factories and production may have slowed down a little bit. Did you get that feeling, or did you get the 01:03:00feeling that this was a humming plant that was just constantly turning out these planes?MCCLAIN: I got the feeling that they were pretty humming. Of course, they were
strictly in the Pacific by then, and so the planes were going to the Pacific, and when the little scout plane was finished, it would have had an order right away. It was just being tested towards the last of the war.REDMAN: Okay, so were they using a lot of the, I assume building a new plane is
kind of a completely different system compared to this assembly line for this tried and true hell cat diver that you've built for a number of years, so this new plane would have involved new designs and new engineering protocol and new assembly. 01:04:00MCCLAIN: Probably, yeah
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so but you were only working on the diver?
MCCLAIN: No, I worked on the experimental plane, too. I don't remember what I
was doing.REDMAN: Can't recall that, okay, but you did work a little bit on the--
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: But the majority of your time would have been on the diver, is that right?
MCCLAIN: On the Helldiver, yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so do you remember, this is maybe a question you might not
be able to recall, but do you remember what type of music you would listen to during the war, or what would the girls do when you got home? Were they all working on the same shift?MCCLAIN: Yes, we were all working the same shift. We took walks and swimming a
01:05:00lot, and listened to the popular music of the time.REDMAN: Okay, do you recall, there are a couple of songs I wanted to ask you
about, do you remember the original Rosie the Riveter song by any chance?MCCLAIN: No, I don't.
REDMAN: There was also a song at the time, it was called, "Don't be an
absentee," that was encouraging people to go to work.MCCLAIN: People to go to work, I don't remember.
REDMAN: Okay, all right, but there was a campaign a "Don't be an absentee"
campaign with posters and things of that time.MCCLAIN: Uh huh.
REDMAN: Yeah, so tell me a little bit more about, were there three shifts at the plant?
MCCLAIN: No, there was only the one shift. It closed down at night. We worked
five and a half days a week.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Forty-four hours, and then a lot of overtime. I had several, many weeks
01:06:00of forty-eight hours, sixty hours.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: A women was not allowed to go beyond sixty.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, would that mostly take place in terms of working into the
evening, or showing up early, or a little bit of both, or working on weekends? How did that overtime--?MCCLAIN: It was working evenings.
REDMAN: Working evenings, okay, so you'd maybe be working on a particular
problem or something that you wanted to finish?MCCLAIN: That they wanted to finish.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so there would be pressure to stay.
MCCLAIN: Yes, yes.
REDMAN: But there was a rule that you could only accumulate sixty hours of--
MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, and what did you think about that at the time?
MCCLAIN: Well, that's another kind of funny story. I rather enjoyed it. I guess
01:07:00I felt I worked more I think than my, I only had two roommates by that time, one girl had gone back home, and I guess I felt kind of superior, I'm going to have to work late.REDMAN: Okay, so there was a pride involved in taking on a little bit of extra--
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: So how were your roommates? Can you tell me a little bit about, we
talked a little bit about what you guys would do together, were they your primary social connection in Columbus, or did you make other friends gradually, or how did that work?MCCLAIN: A few neighbors we were very friendly with, I don't think we ever did
much with them, though. It was mostly the roommates, and other cadets that lived around town. 01:08:00REDMAN: So there would be other cadets that you'd gone through this program with.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: But then were at the plant that you continued to spend time with.
MCCLAIN: Yes, and a couple of girls that had been at other schools still in the
cadets program that, oh, I was very good friends with one.REDMAN: So you'd mentioned that they'd gone to places like Penn State and Iowa
State and Ohio State, as well as Minnesota.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: So then these women would come to Columbus as well.
MCCLAIN: Some of them.
REDMAN: Some of them, okay, do you know the other locations that they were being
sent to?MCCLAIN: You know I don't.
REDMAN: Okay, okay.
MCCLAIN: I should, but I don't.
REDMAN: Well, let's talk about Columbus. Can you tell me a little bit about what
Columbus was like during the war? Did it change at all? Were there, because I know a lot of different places had a lot of new people coming in for work, and so there were new apartment buildings going up, there were new businesses 01:09:00opening in order to accommodate these folks. Was that the case in Columbus? Was Columbus a bustling town at the time or--?MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, yes. Well, our apartment was brand new, and the outskirts of
town were bustling.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so a lot of people who might have been working at
Curtiss-Wright, is that correct, or were there other major plants or factories in town?MCCLAIN: Oh, that I don't recall. I don't think so. Of course, it's the Ohio capitol.
REDMAN: And it's where Ohio State is as well.
MCCLAIN: Yes, oh, yes. In fact, that's probably the reason we didn't work
Saturday afternoons.REDMAN: Oh is that right? Okay, yeah, yeah, and would you, watching football at
01:10:00the campus of Ohio State is kind of a religious pastime.MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, so would the town just kind of shut down and--?
MCCLAIN: Almost.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then did your job stay more or less the same at the
factory, or did it change over time?MCCLAIN: I think I was given a little more responsibility over time.
REDMAN: Can you tell me about that, about how that took place, do you recall how
your job may have changed, how you might have gotten more responsibility?MCCLAIN: Well, I think working with the engineer on drawing the final plans of
the landing gear and hydraulics landing gear, and bomb bay hydraulic system was a big step forward.REDMAN: Okay, that's a large responsibility.
MCCLAIN: Yes, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, so that was that project alone, do you recall how time consuming
01:11:00that was, how much of your time that took?MCCLAIN: No, I don't.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: We finished it, I remember, I debated about whether I should tell you
this, but I think it's funny and you can use it or not. The man I worked with--really all the hydraulic parts or many of them are either internal or external, and those were the words he used, even though their numbers would be like 361F or 361W, or M, and he would never use the M or the F, and I thought someday he's going to miss and I'm going to laugh, and he's going to be so hurt.REDMAN: Right, yeah.
01:12:00MCCLAIN: But I never did.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so yeah, you were always ready for that.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, yeah.
REDMAN: So tell me at the end of the war do you recall VE Day or VJ Day?
MCCLAIN: I recall VJ Day, I don't recall VE Day. VJ Day my roommates and I went
downtown and yelled and shouted with the crowd.REDMAN: Okay, okay, and can you describe what that atmosphere felt like, after
years of being at war?MCCLAIN: Oh, it was a release, I think, for all the people there. You just,
everybody was friendly, it wasn't like now I think I would be afraid to go to downtown New York. It gets pretty wild, but it wasn't wild. There was some drinking, but not excessive, and the police on duty, too. 01:13:00REDMAN: Yeah, yeah, so people were having a good time and letting a little
loose, but it wasn't too crazy.MCCLAIN: Yeah, right.
REDMAN: Okay, so then your girlfriends went downtown with you as well, is that correct?
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Did most people at the end of the war, most people were just happy for
the war to be done, but at the same time a lot of people had gotten their first job at defense industry or they'd maybe been pulled out of the Depression by getting these jobs in defense, so did you get the feeling, was anybody saddened by the idea that they knew that these war time jobs were coming to an end?MCCLAIN: I don't remember that. I remember people who had lost loved ones that
were saddened, but the war ended, and their feeling was sort of so what, it didn't end soon enough. 01:14:00REDMAN: Right, okay, okay, so some people regretted the fact that they had lost
loved ones, okay. How did you feel about the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945?MCCLAIN: In 1945 I think I felt it ended the war and was necessary. I'm not sure
now how I really feel.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so your feelings have maybe changed a little over time?
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, do you think that most people at the time would have agreed
with you that they were just happy that the war was over--MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Even if it required dropping--
MCCLAIN: The atomic bombs, yeah.
REDMAN: Do you remember learning about the death of FDR? I'm trying to think, he
had been President for much of your adult life. 01:15:00MCCLAIN: Yes. I don't remember, I know he died and all, but I don't remember how
or when I found out.REDMAN: Okay, okay, and did you have any feelings about Harry Truman then as President?
MCCLAIN: I think I doubted his ability, but I changed my mind and thought he was
quite good.REDMAN: Okay, so early on you maybe didn't think he could live up to the
standard that FDR had set.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then tell me about what happened at the end of the war.
Were a lot of people let go from the plant where you worked?MCCLAIN: No, they weren't. I think they still hoped to get a contract, probably
on the little scout ship, or possibly still on the Helldiver. They were 01:16:00wonderful about not letting, we had very little work. I can remember going up to my lead man and asking for something to do, and he gave me a small job which should have been finished in a day, and I took it to him three days later.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: He said, "You've got a nerve. I give you a job, and you get it done."
REDMAN: Okay, so work really slowed down.
MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, terribly.
REDMAN: Yeah, yeah, so was it clear then that eventually people would be let go,
or did you sort of hold out hope that these contracts would come through?MCCLAIN: I didn't want to continue working, but I think quite a few people did.
REDMAN: Okay, now how long did you stay at the plant before returning to the
University of Denver?MCCLAIN: Well, up until about two weeks before Christmas, and I think by then I
01:17:00had already signed up, Denver you always, their quarter system worked so you'd have Christmas vacation between quarters, and there wasn't the mob trying to go to school then that there, well, there was quite a few, but you could get classes even late, and so I decided I'd go back and start school again.REDMAN: What were your feelings about that? Were you looking forward to starting
school? Were you sad to leave the plant? Were you sad to leave your friends in Columbus? All of the above.MCCLAIN: All of the above, yeah. But well, it wasn't the same any more in
Columbus or at the plant, and so I just felt the time had come to get back to school.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then tell me about what it was like to return to the
01:18:00University of Denver, so this would have been in early '46, so in the spring semester of '46. So what I'm curious about is that a lot of people would have come back to school at around the same time or maybe the following semester using the GI Bill, so there must have been an influx of men back to campus, is that correct?MCCLAIN: That's correct.
REDMAN: How did that change the dynamic, and then also I'd like to ask if your
being a little older and having a few years of experience working as an engineer change your experience on campus at all?MCCLAIN: Well, I had been a sorority girl before I left, but when I went back, I
was older than most of the girls and just didn't feel it was for me, and asked 01:19:00to become inactive, and they said there was no such a thing, and then I said, "Well, I'm going to drop," and did.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then your social life must have changed a little from
before when you were involved in a sorority to maybe being a little more independent in '46.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, and then what was your, did you move back in with your parents at
that time, or--?MCCLAIN: Yes, I did, and it worked.
REDMAN: Okay, so they had continued on with the same careers during the war.
MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Were they just happy to have you back in Denver?
MCCLAIN: Yes, I think they were. I didn't tell them I was coming. I just walked
in the door, and I thought they'd be so surprised. My mother said, "I thought 01:20:00we'd be seeing you."REDMAN: Is that right, okay, so you thought you were just going to blow them away.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, no.
REDMAN: They were just, "All right, welcome back."
MCCLAIN: Yeah, yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, excellent. Now how about your sister? What did she do during the
war? So she was a little older.MCCLAIN: She was older. She was married. She had by then their son was two or
three I guess, then she had a baby girl, which her husband hardly got to know. He was so thrilled to come home and really be a father to his baby girl.REDMAN: Okay, okay, and where abouts did she live then?
MCCLAIN: Denver.
REDMAN: Okay, so did you then get to see your niece quite a bit and okay, so how
about your boyfriend that you had been dating while in Denver? What happened 01:21:00with that story?MCCLAIN: We broke up. We became engaged and broke up shortly after. I think we
both realized that we were much too different. It wasn't working. It was a mutual thing.REDMAN: Okay, okay, and then tell me about continuing on in school and
graduating from college.MCCLAIN: Well, it was exciting for me. I enjoyed it.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, and you majored in math all the way through.
MCCLAIN: Yes, and I also was able to get some credits for the schooling I did in Minnesota.
REDMAN: Oh, is that right, okay.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, it amounted to a quarter about, which helped.
REDMAN: Okay, and then how about, can you tell me about did any of the things
01:22:00that you learned while working in the engineering room apply at all to going back to the college classroom and taking these math and science courses?MCCLAIN: No, it applied best because I could get a job as a draftsman and help
earn my expenses for school.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: I could get, you could almost always get a job at Denver U, but it
didn't pay very much, so--REDMAN: Right, okay, so you could work in the library or something like that,
but you were a draftsman.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: So where did you find work as a draftsman in Denver?
MCCLAIN: Well, the first place was Prouty Brothers Engineering Company, they did
01:23:00a lot of surveying, and I did maps of the surveys.REDMAN: So how do you spell Prouty, I'm sorry.
MCCLAIN: P R O U T Y.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so Prouty Brothers, and they would do surveying in maps and
you would draft.MCCLAIN: Yeah, they would make a picture of where a house sat on the lot or
something like that, yeah.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so then did you, you worked for another private engineering--
MCCLAIN: Then after that I went to Sterns Roger Manufacturing and Engineering,
and they did a lot of pressure work, and anyway, it was quite a large company.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so you continued on in an engineering career and a drafting
career for some time.MCCLAIN: Until I graduated, yeah.
01:24:00REDMAN: Okay, okay, and then what did you do after graduation?
MCCLAIN: Well, I did continue until my new boyfriend got out of school, and we
came to California and I was able to get a job as a statistician.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so you were excited to get a job that was more along the
lines of math and numbers.MCCLAIN: Oh, yeah, yes. I didn't ever want to sit on a drafting stool again.
REDMAN: Oh, is that right? Okay, yeah.
MCCLAIN: I had a bad experience, this is kind of funny. If you have the time
I'll tell you.REDMAN: Oh, of course.
MCCLAIN: When the little scout ship, we knew it was ready to be tested, flight
tested, but the testers really take their time. I learned to admire them. They 01:25:00would maybe taxi around for days.REDMAN: Is that right, okay.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, so you never knew when it was going to fly. One day a call came
across the room and spread to the whole engineering department the SC's airborne. Everybody rushed to the windows to see it, and I as usual had my feet twined around my drafting stool.REDMAN: Oh, no.
MCCLAIN: And I went down with the drafting stool, so one man stopped and said,
"Are you all right?" I said, "I'm fine, don't miss it, go." So I got up in time to see it. It had flown up runway, and actually it was in the air up runway and it came back about two stories high.REDMAN: Okay, you know it sounds like being in first grade and seeing the first
01:26:00snowfall of the season, all of the kids would run to the windows to see it.MCCLAIN: Run to the windows to see it. If we'd been in a ship, we would have sunk.
REDMAN: Yeah, everybody would have just gone to the wrong side. Well, yeah, it's
interesting that you had this career in engineering and it seems like sort out of utility, out of the opportunities that were there, but you may not have been passionate about it, and indeed, you may wanted to have never seen a drafting table again after that. But tell me what you did as a statistician then after--MCCLAIN: Well, I worked for Douglas Aircraft, and they--
REDMAN: In Southern California?
MCCLAIN: In Los Angeles, yeah, and they, for instance, there are some things the
01:27:00mass of a plane is a good indicator of how fast you can get it done and how you can schedule it.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: It was master scheduling, I can't think of the rest of our title, but
it was interesting, didn't get enough of it, a lot of it was--REDMAN: Your hands, one more time, your hands.
MCCLAIN: Oh.
REDMAN: No problem, its fine, its fine. I even hear your better, yeah. Yeah, so
I'm sorry based on the mass of the plane, the statisticians would be able to figure out how long it would take to construct the entire plane?MCCLAIN: Um hm.
REDMAN: Was that more or less based on just my very simple understanding of how
this might work, of just the history of developing these planes and how long it 01:28:00would take to develop a small plane versus a large plane?MCCLAIN: I think so, yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, so you would maybe compare and contrast the numbers of other
projects, or how--?MCCLAIN: Well, they could figure the mass of the plane if they had to, just add
up the weight of the--REDMAN: Components, or yeah.
MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so did any of your, when you found this job at Douglas,
well, first of all, can I ask how you found the job at Douglas? Do you recall--?MCCLAIN: I went around everywhere I could think of.
REDMAN: So my question is, did working for Curtiss-Wright help you in securing
the job at Douglas at all? It sounds like pretty unrelated work, but I'm curious if, it's both in airplane production.MCCLAIN: Yeah. I would suspect it did help me a little.
01:29:00REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: But it was somebody's imagination I think.
REDMAN: Okay, yeah. Even though you may have been working at an airplane
production factory, the work was totally different.MCCLAIN: Totally different, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, okay, so but you liked the job at Douglas significantly more in
terms of the actual work, is that correct?MCCLAIN: Yes, that's right.
REDMAN: It was more pure numbers, mathematics, the type of work that you were into.
MCCLAIN: Yeah.
REDMAN: Now were there more women in this type of role after the war, or were
you still part of a minority, a very small minority of women working in this type of career.MCCLAIN: Well, I was the only statistician in my department that was a woman.
01:30:00REDMAN: Okay, so how many statisticians would there have been in your
department, roughly, do you recall?MCCLAIN: Three.
REDMAN: Okay, and the others would be men.
MCCLAIN: Oh, gee, I don't know what they did.
REDMAN: Okay, if they were statisticians or if they were just hanging around.
MCCLAIN: No, They were working.
REDMAN: They were working, okay, okay. So then would you be in a particular
office with--?MCCLAIN: Yes, yes. Our office had in our little room, there were three of us and
then were a lot of little rooms not like they are now, but just probably twenty people in the department.REDMAN: Okay. Can I ask about the process of doing math and engineering before
modern calculators and things of that nature? The job today must be wildly 01:31:00different from what it would have been like during the war and then immediately after, is that correct?MCCLAIN: Oh, yes. Computers have changed it a great deal. And like drafting,
when we almost always when you were drawing or drafting anything you did a front view and a side view. Well, now they just set the computer, and it goes around.REDMAN: Okay, so they could do a 360--
MCCLAIN: Yeah, yeah. And the math, of course, the computers help speed it up so much.
REDMAN: Okay, yeah, well, I can imagine there would have been times when you
wish you could have rotated a--MCCLAIN: Oh, yes. Yes, I drew one piece of just a bracket of some kind, and I
01:32:00did a front view and that was okay, it kind of had shape. Then I did the side view, and it looked like a meat cleaver, it was the weirdest thing I ever saw. So yeah, that has changed tremendously, and statistics, too, has changed so much.REDMAN: Being able to use graphing software and all kind of calculations.
MCCLAIN: Oh, yes, yeah. I can't imagine really.
REDMAN: Okay, okay. So then you eventually got married and were living in
Southern California.MCCLAIN: Yes.
REDMAN: Okay, and then did you start a family there as well?
MCCLAIN: Yes, I did, and you could not work for Douglas Aircraft after your
third month of pregnancy.REDMAN: Is that right, okay.
MCCLAIN: I took that to court.
01:33:00REDMAN: Is that right, so basically as soon as you start showing, you need to--
MCCLAIN: Yeah, you're out of there.
REDMAN: Okay, so you went to court.
MCCLAIN: Yeah, I think the lawyer I got said, "You aren't going to get anywhere
with this at all." And I believed him.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so it was a short-lived battle for that, okay. But you
wanted to stay at Douglas.MCCLAIN: Yes, at least for a while longer, and I don't' know whether I'd have
stayed, I doubt if I'd stay after my baby was born, but I would have liked to have stayed nine months, we needed the money.REDMAN: Okay, yeah, yeah. So then you raised, you then left work for a little
while or more or less for good.MCCLAIN: More or less permanently, which is something I have regretted I think,
but yeah.REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about that, so you in substance you may not have
01:34:00wanted to stay at Douglas forever, but you would have preferred to stay working.MCCLAIN: I think so, I did a lot of volunteer jobs, and some of them were really fun.
REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: But I guess I thought if I had it all to do over again, I would have
liked to have been a teacher in the primary grades.REDMAN: Is that right, okay, okay. Would you have wanted to teach in particular
math or pass on your love of mathematics?MCCLAIN: Not particularly. I just loved to work with little children, first,
second grade at most.REDMAN: Okay.
MCCLAIN: Whether I'd have been a success I have no idea.
01:35:00REDMAN: Okay, okay, well, what I'd like end on is I'd like to ask if there,
we've talked about a lot of things today.MCCLAIN: Yes, we surely have.
REDMAN: We have talked about growing up in Denver, what your favorite subjects
were in school, how you sort of absorbed all of the subjects in school growing up, and what your parents were like, what they did for work, this jobs training program with Curtiss-Wright, being a cadet, and then the actual job and working and what happened to you after the war. Is there anything you'd like to add to this, anything that you think we passed over? You can go ahead and take a look at your notes if you like.MCCLAIN: Well, I don't think it's probably, no, I did cover that. No, I think we
01:36:00practically covered my whole life.REDMAN: We've done a pretty darn good job, yeah.
MCCLAIN: I will say maybe I would have enjoyed trying to get kids less afraid of
math, because that's why a lot of them don't like it, they're afraid of it. I think this may have been handed down by an older sibling or by their parents or something.REDMAN: How about women in mathematics in particular? That's one thing that I've
wanted to ask about, and I asked you about in a couple of different ways. It strikes me that even today women are in subtle ways discouraged from careers in math in particular, but math and science as well, but mathematics in particular, so it's pretty unusual this program sort out of necessity where 700 girls go 01:37:00into an engineering program that would have in some sense bucked social norms at the time. It would have been pretty different for these college classes to then be filled with young women.MCCLAIN: Well, yes, but our classes were completely separate from the rest of
the university.REDMAN: Okay, okay.
MCCLAIN: Because of our ten-month schedule.
REDMAN: Okay, do you think the professors got used to that, that they were then
walking into an engineering classroom that would be entirely women?MCCLAIN: Yes, I think they did.
REDMAN: Okay, but then there was a little bit more strife then with some of the
male engineers at Curtiss-Wright sometimes. Most of them you said were quite nice, but sometimes some of them resented having women, and that in '46 and 01:38:00beyond at Douglas Aircraft with your pregnancy and then being told you had to leave this career, it seems that women had some disadvantages in terms of education and then getting these jobs.MCCLAIN: Yes, yes.
REDMAN: Could you just reflect on that for a moment?
MCCLAIN: Yes, I think that I've always had the feeling if they'd just given us a
chance, we could do it, and that's still necessary I think, that they don't give women a chance. If a man and women applied for the same job, but she had better credentials, they would take the man. Things are changing. For one thing, women 01:39:00are able to have families and still work, although that can be very, very hard, but anyway I don't have any more thoughts on that.REDMAN: Okay, sort of the last thing that I'd like to ask is that over the last
couple of the decades in particular, the Rosie the Riveter image, that sort of the iconic that "We can do it" poster or the Norman Rockwell poster, this has come to symbolize women workers during World War II. But you mentioned walking down to the assembly line and seeing your first Rosie the Riveter. Do you think, I would say a lot of people would consider you a Rosie? 01:40:00MCCLAIN: Probably.
REDMAN: So can you sort of reflect on this idea of Rosie the Riveter? Do you
identify with that as a Rosie now today, or do you think that those were the women who were holding the riveting gun or do you think they were just as much the engineers who were doing these types of programs, or the cadets?MCCLAIN: I think they were just the same, met probably very similar experiences
with maybe not being accepted at first and then finding out that "By Jove, she can rivet." My husband had a woman working for him, he was a road commissioner, and one of the crews they had, which were always all men, and so I asked her crew boss one evening I said, "How has that worked out?" He said, "She can do 01:41:00anything that a man her size can do, and she's very welcome." That was good.REDMAN: Okay, okay, so you maybe saw some attitudes changing.
MCCLAIN: I think so, yes.
REDMAN: Okay, but it's interesting then there's kind of a tension there with
women still having to leave work and the men coming in and taking some of these jobs back with the idea that the war time work would be temporary, but then at the same time these people who'd sort of realized during the war that, "Wow, she can be a draftswoman," or "you can be a successful statistician," so there was, it must have been in some sense kind of a hard pill to swallow when Douglas told you you couldn't come back to work when you were more than three months pregnant, is that right?MCCLAIN: Yes, yes, well it completely surprised me, I had no idea, and I don't
01:42:00know whether it was well, women can work now I think anywhere as long as they're feeling well enough, and no, I don't know, it was just a hard and fast rule.REDMAN: That's so funny, well, let me ask if you could just reflect on the war
in just your life and how it fits in your life and when you think back on the war years, what do you think about primarily?MCCLAIN: I think I am saddest about many of the boys in high school. It's made
me a little bit bitter with the ROTC because these boys that I remember that were killed first were ROTC. They were officers in ROTC and then became officers 01:43:00in the Army, and they weren't ready for it.REDMAN: Okay, so thinking about how that system works is one of the things that
stands out in your mind.MCCLAIN: Um hm.
REDMAN: Okay, well, on that I'd like to thank you so much for sitting down with
me today and telling me so much about your life.MCCLAIN: Well, thank you. Like I say, I enjoyed it. I know I've gotten off
subject a few times.REDMAN: Oh, no, that's great. We like that, and has it helped you recall some
different things that--MCCLAIN: Yes, yes, it has, and when I was sitting here writing, the things I
thought, "Oh my goodness, that's funny." Oh, I'll tell you one more funny thing.REDMAN: Great.
MCCLAIN: This professor at Minnesota confessed one day that he, we just assumed
01:44:00he was married. He had a gold ring on his ring finger. He said, "Well, I'm not married. I didn't want to be bothered by the girls."REDMAN: Oh, that is so funny.
MCCLAIN: He didn't have a personality to appeal to any of, everybody went out of
there saying he didn't have a problem.REDMAN: What girl would have, that is so funny.
MCCLAIN: Plus his being oh, six or seven years older, and that was a century then.
REDMAN: Right, yeah, oh, that is so funny. Well, what a good story. Well, once
again I appreciate everything. Thank you so much.MCCLAIN: Thank you.
REDMAN: Excellent.
MCCLAIN: I hope I haven't ruined any--
[End of Interview]
