Jack Arnold | Interview 1 | February 1, 2003

WASHBURN: My name's David Washburn and I'm interviewing Jack Arnold here in El Cerrito. Jack, I don't want to talk too much about growing up in Iowa because we'd be here all day probably. But just briefly, when and where were you born?

ARNOLD: I was born in Council Bluffs, Iowa. It's across the Missouri River from Omaha. That's where my dad worked for the newspaper. {The non pro.} And worked in lumberyards. His dad had five lumberyards one time. Very successful. Until the crash come and took everything. 1929, 28 or 9. So then we moved to a little 00:01:00farm out of Vail, where my mother was from. She inherited 80 to 100 acres, something like that, of land. So that didn't work for my dad because he wasn't a farmer in the first place. [laughs]

So then we moved to Van Meter and he bought a store. So he and I went to Van Meter, and they stayed on the farm until they sold that, my mother and the rest of the family. So I was the delivery boy. Had a little wagon and delivered groceries. [laughs] Maybe made 10 cents, 20 cents. And then I had a paper route when I was a kid. The train never stopped, it goes through town 80 miles an hour. And throw it off, and pick up the mail on an arm. So here I am in the wintertime, freezing to death, trying to find the snow in a snow bank. [laughs]

WASHBURN: Trying to find the mail in a snow bank.

ARNOLD: Yes, but I got the paper route. That was the Des Moines Register Tribune.

WASHBURN: So where were you raised?

ARNOLD: Van Meter.

WASHBURN: In Van Meter, Iowa.

ARNOLD: The best three things I used to say come from there was Bob Feller, Jack Arnold, and the road going west. [laughs] Bob Feller was quite a pitcher. He's in the Hall of Fame, he played for Cleveland. So I caught. him for four years, I was a high school catcher when he left. In a gym. And I couldn't get no fast balls from him in a gym because I couldn't see it.

WASHBURN: So I want to ask you about what Iowa was like right before World War 00:03:00II. What did most people do right prior to the war, in 1940, 1941, for work?

ARNOLD: It was a farming area. Everybody had farms. We were eighteen miles from Des Moines, a few people worked there. And we had the grocery store. And we had a nice school; it was a unified school, first grade to twelfth grade. Nice gym, always had a good basketball, good baseball team. Des Moines had five high schools, and we beat them all. [laughs]

WASHBURN: So where did most residents work?

ARNOLD: Around farms--it wasn't a big town. Three hundred-fifty people. Van 00:04:00Meter was. I guess quite a few worked at the Ford Plant in Des Moines. Big plant there. I think most people worked there. And a telephone company. I can't say what though. I remember two guys that worked on the roads. They made pretty good money I guess. [laughs] But it was a poor little town. Outside toilets. [laughs] When I had to come back, everything was modern then. I didn't go back there to live, but I come through there, in '43.

WASHBURN: So prior to the war, most people didn't have the modern homes that they did later on?

ARNOLD: Yes, now it's beautiful back there. You can buy homes like this not too far out of town. And no deer then, when I was there, but now a lot of deer, pheasants.

WASHBURN: Right before the war, how old where you in 1940? When did you graduate high school?

ARNOLD: I never did. I left when I was a senior. But I got my diploma. After fifty years, they gave me my diploma. I left in November of '42, and went to Sheep's Head Bay, Long Island, for training. And then I got sunk on a tanker in '43, and come back here out of the West Coast. I said no more tankers--

WASHBURN: So you were still in high school when the war broke out?

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: What were your ambitions, what did you want to do, right before the 00:06:00war broke out, before we knew we were going to go to war?

ARNOLD: I had a scholarship for Drake University. I'd have wound up going there and being a coach, math teacher, and manual arts teacher, probably, like three or four other guys did. Athletes. And that's probably what I'd have been. I'm glad I didn't. But they were all successful, I guess. I met them all at the fiftieth anniversary. They gave me my diploma. The superintendent of schools said, "Jack, don't you worry. You'll get a diploma." The war was going on then.

WASHBURN: So how did you make the decision to enter the Merchant Marines?

ARNOLD: Come out in the paper, "Join the Merchant Marines! See the world! Lots of money!" So this guy's going to get drafted in the army, he says, "Jack, let's 00:07:00join this thing." So I says, fine. I'm going to make some money, you know? [laughs] See the world. So we went together, and we met people from different towns, in Des Moines. I had to get my records, my name registered. So my Dad took me to Des Moines. I had no name. Baby Arnold. I could have named myself for fifty cents anything I wanted. But I kept the Jack Kenneth. [laughs] For my birth certificate, that's what it was. So from there we went to Sheep's Head Bay. Pulled into Grand Central Station, come out onto the sidewalk, and you could tell that we were from the hicks from the country, looking up at the 00:08:00Empire State Building, and all those big tall buildings. I started sailing, from there. Actually, I started sailing from New Jersey.

WASHBURN: So you found out about the Merchant Marines in the newspaper?

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: So what was your motivation for going into the Merchant Marines, rather than some other service?

ARNOLD: Well, good money! It's dangerous. I didn't care about the danger, because I take care of myself pretty good. But I did get off of three ships. This old sailor from Boston, he said, "This is going to [Mer Mance]. The one ship out of ten will make it to [Mer Mance]." Thank god, he had me under his wing. We didn't get on any of those ships.

WASHBURN: For someone who doesn't know much about the Merchant Marines, can you 00:09:00describe what they did?

ARNOLD: We hauled oil, in tankers, plane fuel. And merchant ships, cargo, all kinds of cargo. The ship I went down on was an oil tanker in the Caribbean.

WASHBURN: The Merchant Marines were not part of the service at that time, correct?

ARNOLD: That's right, at that time. We belonged to the Commerce Department. And the shipping company, the federal government paid us the same amount. The salary wasn't that big, but it was pretty good. And we got torpedoed, we got 500 00:10:00dollars for that. Sunk. If you got bombed, you got another 500. Close by, in the danger zone. We got chased from this other trip. We left Curaçao in Aruba and in the keys of Florida there's a PBY plane goes over and it says, "Get the hell out of here. There's thirteen wolf pack down there." Thirteen subs. So they chased us to [Ocerso], which is Cologne, Panama. We beat them there.

WASHBURN: When and how did you learn that serving in the Merchant Marines was dangerous?

ARNOLD: Well, it was in the paper. I knew it was dangerous. Because the Atlantic was full of subs. And finally, we put in the degaussing system on the ships, so 00:11:00the polar parts of the ships wouldn't suck the torpedoes in. So the degaussing system knocked that off, so they had to come straight at you to hit you. Otherwise they'd go around like this and hit, and the magnet would pull it in. But as soon as I started sailing I knew it was dangerous. But the money was good too. And I sailed for Esso Standard New Jersey, at that time.

WASHBURN: You sailed out of what?

ARNOLD: Esso, Standard New Jersey. We booked in Hoboken that's where we pulled in. New Jersey. The Statue of Liberty is right there. We were right by it.

WASHBURN: Right on the other side of the harbor.

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: Or in the middle of the harbor, it is.

What did you do with the money that you were paid? And what did the other Merchant Marines you served with do with the money they were paid?

ARNOLD: Spent it. Most of--[laughs] I learned my lesson from some old wiper on the ship. Angel Gang. Tears coming out of his eyes paying everybody off in poker money at the end of his trip. I says, that'll teach me not to play poker. Gamble on the ship. And I helped my folks. I sent them money.

WASHBURN: You sent them home money? Why did you send them home money?

ARNOLD: Well, we lost the store and my dad fed everybody in town in the Depression. Everybody was on the books, even Bob Feller's folks were on the 00:13:00books. He never did pay it back, and he was making big money. Eighty-some thousand, at that time, was a lot of money. I think he made eighty-seven thousand. But we took care of it, going out of business. So my two brothers joined the Coast Guard, in '39 I think it was. Before the war. So my dad, he was a pretty good carpenter, he went to Dutch Harbor and built. Oh, I guess it was like they had in Richmond, war housing, up in Dutch Harbor in Alaska. So he worked up there until he comes to Richmond, and worked as a glazier on a ship. Shipyards. And I met my wife--.

WASHBURN: How much would you send them home of your pay?

ARNOLD: Oh, couple hundred dollars a month. In fact I put down a payment on their house, when they had it.

WASHBURN: A lot of other people in the service couldn't do that because they weren't making the same money. Did you feel fortunate to be serving for the Merchant Marines?

ARNOLD: Oh yes, yes. They finally put armed guard on them. Navy guys. We took care of them. We go on shore; we always buy them booze, something to eat. It was our extra money.

WASHBURN: Well, explain that. Why did they do that and how did that work?

ARNOLD: Well, they gave us hell for making so much money. And here they're riding with us, and supposed to protect us. They had about ten guys running the 00:15:00guns. Five each on the back, and three each on the front, he bow. 20 millimeter cages. I guess it was a little envious of us, making the kind of money we each made.

WASHBURN: So what would you do when you had shore leave?

ARNOLD: Find a bar. [laughs] Some places they wouldn't let us in, because we was Merchant Marines. We weren't servicemen. In fact, I hate the Red Cross. When we got sunk, they wouldn't help us out. We were civilians. So the Salvation Army helped us out. It was toothpaste, toothbrushes, some clothes until we got back to New York. The USO, they wouldn't let us in. Truman just about had it. They 00:16:00pigeonholed the thing--

WASHBURN: Just about had what?

ARNOLD: Had us servicemen. And Roosevelt had it. They pigeonholed when he died, and it was forgotten until it was, I think it was '78 or '87 when we become servicemen. They turned it over to the Coast Guard.

WASHBURN: I was going to ask you that question. How were you received when you went overseas?

ARNOLD: Very good. Very good. There was no servicemen there, usually. On the way someplace, over or back. Honolulu, we stopped there. That's where I beat Bobo Wilson. Knocked him out two rounds. [laughs] I didn't know him, he didn't know me. But I got acquainted with him later when he became the champion in the world. Middle weight champion.

WASHBURN: So you boxed someone-- What branch of the military was he in?

ARNOLD: Bobo? He was just a kid. He lived in Hawaii at the time. But he never was in the service.

WASHBURN: Oh, so he wasn't a service--

ARNOLD: But he was a fighter, at the time, I guess. He was probably sixteen, I was nineteen, I guess. [laughs] No competition, really, for me, but-- he's [inaudible] and he was pretty nice--

WASHBURN: What was his name again?

ARNOLD: Bobo Olson.

WASHBURN: Did you notice a difference in the way people received you as a merchant marine in different cities?

ARNOLD: Yes. In Chicago, on the way back after I got sunk. Took the Grand 00:18:00Central to Chicago; we had to stay over five hours to catch the Rock Island to Des Moines. I had the uniform, looked like I was the chief or something in the [laughs] navy or something. There was merchant marine insignia though. And I went into this bar and all these WACs stood up and saluted me. Naturally, I felt bad. I felt ashamed of myself. And the same thing in Des Moines. I fought for this guy, too, I can't remember his name. He was a promoter, and I fought a fight in Kansas City and I won. Can't think of his name. But it had a bar, beautiful bar, but it was against the law to even have a bar in Iowa at that time. But he was paying somebody off.

WASHBURN: So you were saying that the WACs--The WACs were women--

ARNOLD: Army. They were in Des Moines. They had three of the biggest hotels there, took them over. Then it was nothing but women. [laughs] And that was where they all stood up, too. And I didn't have a tie on. She says, "You're out of uniform, sir." I says, "What do you mean?" I say, "I'm a merchant marine. I can dress in shorts if I want to. [laughs] Woke her up. Thought she was going to get somebody [inaudible] higher than her. You can't do nothing to him, he's Merchant Marines. [laughs]

WASHBURN: What did you know about Richmond before you moved here?

ARNOLD: Nothing. I took a brand new ship out of here that was it. The Ring 00:20:00Lardner, a liberty ship. It was loaded with nothing but bombs and torpedoes. All ammo. From here to Brisbane, Australia. It took six weeks to get there. Brand new ship when we left, when we were there looked like a rust bucket when got there. Went eight knots wide open. Zigzag [inaudible]. But we stop in Hawaii first. That's where I met Bobo.

WASHBURN: So you came to Richmond on another ship?

ARNOLD: No. I come across by car. I bought a car, and my brother-in-law was a machinist, right out of Des Moines. Ames, Iowa. [inaudible] I don't know, they did something for the war there. Ammo or something. So he says, "I'll go with 00:21:00you." He was a journeyman machinist, and he's about 23 years old. So he went worked Standard Oil, and a journeyman there had to be 40 years old before he could become a journeyman. So he was the youngest machinist out there. So we bunked up where my dad who was out in some garage, somewhere on Ohio Street down in Richmond. So we bunked there, and of course I was only there two days and got a ship, the Ring Lardner. [laughs]

WASHBURN: But you did know something about Richmond because your dad worked here.

ARNOLD: Yes, he worked at the shipyards.

WASHBURN: He was too old to go into the service.

ARNOLD: My dad? Oh yes. Right now he'd be 115 if he'd kept living.

WASHBURN: So tell me, how did your Dad go from Des Moines finally to Richmond? Can you follow his story a little bit?

ARNOLD: Yes, he went to Dutch Harbor from there. From Van Meter. How he got there, I don't know. By plane, I guess. He went to Des Moine and joined-- it wasn't service but--Carpenters or somebody had to go up there and build these things. So when he finished that, he come to Richmond cause it was shipyards. They were trying anybody that could walk. So he become a glazier, putting the ships together. Glass men, portholes and stuff.

WASHBURN: What years were these?

ARNOLD: '43. So '44, that's when I met my wife Irma. They lived in housing across from us upstairs. Her and her family, my folks, and me, and my younger 00:23:00sister. So, I know her three weeks, we get married. [laughs]

WASHBURN: So before you came to Richmond, what did your father tell you about what it was like?

ARNOLD: He didn't know. He had no idea what I was going through. Guess he wasn't at any part in the war. Except up there in Dutch Harbor.

WASHBURN: Did he describe Richmond to you at all?

ARNOLD: No. We finally found him. I guess I called my mother up. He was staying in this place in the garage. Everybody had their garage fixed up for bunks, for people to sleep in. So, we found him.

WASHBURN: What were your impressions of Richmond, for those couple of days that 00:24:00you came in 1943?

ARNOLD: Well, it was a big town. Way bigger than where I come from. And it was pretty nice. But then when I come back, I stayed with my folks at the war housing project. When I got married I brought a house around the corner on 50th Street. That's where my wife and I started out there. I got married in '44. Fifty-seven years ago. Fifty-eight years ago!.

WASHBURN: You married in '44?

ARNOLD: Yes, '44.

WASHBURN: When and where did you settle first?

ARNOLD: After I got married, I bought this house. Right up the street around the corner, on 50th Street. Off of Cutting.

WASHBURN: Could you describe what the house was like?

ARNOLD: Yes. It was a brick house. White brick, two bedrooms. It wasn't a real big house, but-- Two bedrooms--My daughter was born in '45. August 8th, she was born. So we lived there for a year , before she was born. I got a kick out of Frank Perelli, he was our milkman. And he was a friend of the Silver Dollar bunch up there. He would walk in, we wouldn't be home. There'd be butter, eggs, and milk, he'd just walk in the door and put them in the refrigerator! [laughs] You trusted people at that time.

WASHBURN: Yes, so describe who else lived in that neighborhood?

ARNOLD: Well up at the end of the street were the {Miamoto} family. They had a florist [shop]. I think it was '44, they let them out of the place they put them 00:26:00all, the Japanese people. Different places around the country. And the old man fellow, planted flowers for us. Very nice people. And I knew two of the sons, Tommy and Richie {Miamoto}, and the sister, Dolly they called her. They're still in business, somewhere out in Point Richmond somewhere. North Richmond--

WASHBURN: Who else lived in that neighborhood?

ARNOLD: I couldn't name anybody.

WASHBURN: Were they all--

ARNOLD: People from out of state, yes. My folks would know them, but I didn't know them. They made friends.

WASHBURN: When you moved there, were the Japanese still in the internment camps?

ARNOLD: In internment camps? I think they were, yes. Before we moved on, I think they let them out, in '44 or '45, something like that.

WASHBURN: And did you ever talk with folks like Miamoto about his time?

ARNOLD: No. Because they were ashamed that they'd even be there. They were as good as I was, as far as I was concerned. I thought it was bad too. They didn't do it with Italians, and Germans, they didn't put them in internment camps. They were our enemies, they were active. They weren't allies at that time.

WASHBURN: When did you stop serving for the Merchant Marines?

ARNOLD: June of '45.

WASHBURN: So you came in and out of Richmond then?

ARNOLD: Yes, well out of San Francisco was our port.

WASHBURN: Describe that, I don't know, do you serve like a platoon, or a certain time? Could you describe what that was like, when you go off for a certain amount of time and come back?

ARNOLD: Well, I think we had thirteen men on deck. The navy, they have two hundred-thirteen. And a pigeon crew, they had twelve or thirteen guys. And that was all we had on the ships. Of course, the captain, and the first mate, and the 00:29:00second mate, and the third mate.

WASHBURN: So when you lived in Richmond, when and why would you go off and serve?

ARNOLD: I'd stay a couple of weeks. Then I'd go to the union hall, get another ship. I belong to NMU, the National Maritime Union. And they had one other one, SUP, Saliors Union Pacific. But I already belonged to one out of New York, NMU. Joe Kearn was his name, was the head of it. So I still sail under NMU here, out of San Francisco.

WASHBURN: So they would hire you. Describe it, I don't know how that process worked. How would it work?

ARNOLD: Go to the union hall, and wait, you know. How many AB's they want, and this and that. Ordinary Z was the lowest, AB was next. And that was as high you 00:30:00go on deck, unless he was a boatswain, which I wound up, youngest boatswain sailing out of San Francisco. That was on a C-2 cargo ship. The Liberty had steam wenches, burnt coal to cook with. Had a blunt bow, it pushed the water, didn't cut it, like the sea jobs did. That like a clipper bow, like that. A wedge would go like this.

WASHBURN: Well what did the Merchant Marines think about the Liberty ships?

ARNOLD: Well they got them there. They paid for them selves, one trip. They 00:31:00served a purpose for the United States. To get people over, supplies. I took a-- that was a liberty ship too. Can't remember the name of it. We was in Enewetak, in the Marshall Islands. And we laid on the hook fifty-six days, waiting to go on to Saipan or Guam. Fifty-six days, we ran out of food. So we dropped the lifeboat, and we begging food from all the little ships around there. Must have been a thousand ships there on hook. Waiting for the Saipan or Guam invasion. We went to Guam.

WASHBURN: Where were you guys stationed at that time?

ARNOLD: Marshall Islands, Enewetak. I hit a nine iron across it. A golf ball.

WASHBURN: So did you serve on liberty ships, during this time?

ARNOLD: Yes. Not all of them. Did the C jobs, C-2 cargo. Golden Gate, was the name of that. Nice ship. And my last ship was an U.S. lines, was a C-1. I didn't make the trip on that, because I knocked the hell out of the third mate. [laughs] Irma was still pregnant with our first child, Jackie. I come late, that was most of them. So he's up there giving my guys hell for doing something, he didn't know what he was talking about. I say, "You get your ass off of there, and I'll take over. I'm late, I'm 30 minutes late." He said, You're not supposed to be late." I say, "I told you yesterday, my wife has been sick, carrying this baby." So he said something smart to me and I knocked him flat on his ass. [laughs]

WASHBURN: With some boxing skills, huh?

ARNOLD: I was a dirty fighter too. I was a better street fighter, I think. I never was beat in the ring either. Anyhow, he was going to take me to court,. So I had to go before the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard guy says, "Did you sign articles yet?" I say, "No, I didn't sign no articles. I wouldn't have hit him if I'd have been on articles." The guy couldn't do nothing. He had as sore jaw, I know that. So that's when I quit.

WASHBURN: That's when you quit the Merchant Marines.

ARNOLD: Yes, I had enough.

WASHBURN: So you stopped serving for the Merchant Marines in June of '45. And what did you do then to make a living?

ARNOLD: Well, I couldn't get a job anyplace, because everybody was looking for work, got out of the service. So I used to drink at the Silver Dollar. So I was talking to the guy that owned it, Fred Berthaud. And he said, "Well Jack, I'll break you in as a bartender." He had a good guy there that was a pretty good bartender, who broke me in. So I worked for him.

WASHBURN: I'm interested in knowing, you said the first time we talked that before you worked at the Silver Dollar, the shipyards were still open in Richmond. Why didn't you get a job working at Kaiser?

ARNOLD: I don't know. I wasn't a machinist, I wasn't a, steel man. I was a good 00:35:00deck man, I was good at rigging booms and stuff. I was going to get a job at a rigging lot in San Francisco. That's where they bought all the ropes and stuff for the ships. But that was a closed union, and there was no way they would hire a young guy off of the street.

WASHBURN: Did you find a lot of jobs were like that, when you stopped serving? That they excluded people for certain reasons?

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: Why would a job exclude somebody like yourself who was looking for work? What are the reasons?

ARNOLD: Well, it was closed shop. It was [inaudible]. So I went to see some guy from El Cerrito, and he was head of the Painters Union. And he says, "You've got 00:36:00to start from scratch. You've got to be apprenticed." I said, "How come? I was a boatswain! I bought paint, I painted, I had crews working for me, painting the ships when we docked or something, or on hook." "Sorry, I can't let you in the union." So that's when I started working to tend the bar.

WASHBURN: How did your status as a Merchant Marine affect your ability to find a good job?

ARNOLD: Well, I don't know if it's good, but bartending is pretty good money. With the tips at that time.

WASHBURN: No, I mean, how did the fact that you didn't have veteran status affect finding a job?

ARNOLD: I don't understand.

WASHBURN: Were certain jobs open to people who were veterans?

ARNOLD: I wasn't a veteran.

WASHBURN: That's what I'm saying. So can you describe what it was like, the 00:37:00difference between people who were veterans, and who had served in Merchant Marines, finding work?

ARNOLD: Oh yes, they take the veterans first.

WASHBURN: Why did they set it up that way do you think?

ARNOLD: Well, I wasn't a serviceman. And we lost more people than all of them put together, by percentage. That's the way it goes. That's the way it went--

WASHBURN: Did people in the Merchant Marines voice that that was unfair?

ARNOLD: Yes. We did our job. And I was happy to see them put us in there.

WASHBURN: Do you remember anybody saying things to you about trying to change 00:38:00that at that time, change your status as veterans right then, to get a job?

ARNOLD: Not to get a job, no. But I wish it had gone through when Roosevelt had it going through Congress. It had to be up to Congress whether to do it.

WASHBURN: So then, can you tell me the story again how you found work at The Silver Dollar bar?

ARNOLD: I used to go up there and drink, once and a while. And they were nice people. They had a boy named Bud, a son-in-law named Bob; when they got out of the navy, they come in and took over. So they didn't need me anymore, that's when I went to the Town House.

WASHBURN: For someone you didn't know, can you describe what the bar was like and where it was?

ARNOLD: It was on San Pablo Avenue. On Knott Street and San Pablo, on the corner. And it was a pretty nice bar. It was old. Working people all working at the shipyards and stores around. Dance with the jukebox. Good old music. [laughs] And it was nice, looked nice.

WASHBURN: Can you describe the clientele?

ARNOLD: They were all older than me. I don't know, it was all nice people. Irish family. The Burns family, McKillops. They had a sheet metal shop on the corner from there. His kids were jumping over booths, playing tag. [laughs] And I see the son nowadays, I don't even know who he was, because I met him at the shop. 00:40:00Phil's barbershop. I've seen him a couple of times now. But I would never have recognized him. But they were about my kids' age.

WASHBURN: Where did the people who came in the Silver Dollar work?

ARNOLD: The shipyards. Most all of them. They were still building ships, I think, yes, in '45.

WASHBURN: Did it seem like people had a good amount of money to spend on drinks?

ARNOLD: Yes. Weren't paying much rent, all were living in war housing, just 00:41:00about. I remember one old gal come in there, she worked at Penney's for--well, she was old then, so she worked for them for 20, 30 years, I imagine. She had her booze everyday. I forget her name. Florence something. But nice people.

WASHBURN: Can you describe what Friday nights were like there? Try to describe what the scene was like there, at the Silver Dollar.

ARNOLD: Well the jukebox was going like crazy, and there was dancing. Everybody doing their own dance.

WASHBURN: How would you describe how much people drank?

ARNOLD: Well, they could still walk, when they left. [laughs] Because you're not supposed to serve a drunk, you know? But they had a good time. They had enough I think. When it was crowded, I think there was twenty stools at the bar, and booths around the edge, the outside wall. And they were full, especially Friday night. That was our busiest day. Any bar would be, I think, at that time.

WASHBURN: Were there other bars nearby to the Silver Dollar?

ARNOLD: Yes. Up the street was Todd's and the other way was Palm Gardens, Potrero and San Pablo. The Forum was still there, where it is now, and there was 00:43:00another little bar across the street, too, I can't think of where it was. Around the corner, at that time, it was Little Angie's. And across the street that corner, Potrero, and San Pablo, was the Corner Bar, up the street was Bank Club, the It Club, Corner Club, then the Albany Club, in Albany. And there were some more bars in between them but I can't think of them. Oh, Jack's Club was there.

WASHBURN: So a lot of the clubs and bars were really close to each other. Would 00:44:00people walk back and forth from one bar to the next? Or did people stay kind of regular?

ARNOLD: No, there were regular customers. Yes, they were regular. See them all the time. Everybody had their favorite spot, I think.

WASHBURN: What did people say was nice about the Silver Dollar? Why did they like going there?

ARNOLD: They all liked Fred, he was a pretty nice old guy. And his family was all nice. And he ran a nice place.

WASHBURN: So you started there in the summer of '45, you started working there. What are some of your best memories about that summer, working there? Probably a 00:45:00lot, but--

ARNOLD: I don't know, I can't remember now. I enjoyed it--

WASHBURN: And so, as the bartender, did you kind of come to know all the people who came in there?

ARNOLD: Oh, it didn't take me long. And they liked me.

WASHBURN: Hey, can you tell me some stories about some of the folks there, in that year?

ARNOLD: Well, I can remember one. Something happened to the gal who run the dice table. So, I said "I'll do it, I'll run it." I worked the day shift, at that time. So I'm there, playing this dice game, I forget what they called it, and this big son-of-a-gun, his brother-in-law run the store, Andrew's Grocery, down the street. And this big son-of a-gun grabs me by the tie and take me outside. 00:46:00[laughs] I'm on my tiptoes, you know, "What the hell you doing?" He says "You cheated me. My brother-in-law said you cheated me." I says "I don't cheat nobody. It's not my money. Win it, take it, that's what I'm here for. See that the game's played right, you know?" So we get outside, and, I thought "Well, I gotta do something." Great big Swede from, Minnesota, I guess he was from. So I come up off my knee, got him in his knockers. And he come over like this, and I come up with my knee again and caught him under the chin and whoosh, down he goes.

WASHBURN: Wow.

ARNOLD: So I come back in, and everybody thought, "Jeez, Jack's gonna die out there." Nobody come out to help me. I walk in, I says, "Come here, Ray. Goddamn you you're next." And he looked at me, "What did you do to my brother-in-law?" I said "I beat the shit out of him, that's what I did. He had no reason to pick me 00:47:00up and take me outside." People never forgot that too, you know, they knew I could handle myself.

WASHBURN: That was the first summer you worked there.

ARNOLD: Yes. And the guy showed up the next morning, Fred says, "What the hell did you do to that guy?" So I told him the story you. He says, "Yes, he deserved what you gave him."

WASHBURN: Describe, there was gambling there at the bar. Describe what kinds of gambling there were.

ARNOLD: Well it was just a dice game, I forget what they called it. Like you pick out a six, so if there are more sixes in three rolls, then you got so much money for it. I forget what they called it. High dice or something like that. And then they had slot machines in the back room too. I think he had three slot machines back there. And they paid off, they were loaded all the time. Not going 00:48:00back into gambling. And he made quite a bit of money on the machines.

WASHBURN: So who was doing the gambling at the bar. Who was playing the games?

ARNOLD: Oh just anybody could come in off the street.

WASHBURN: You didn't have to know somebody special to do it.

ARNOLD: Well maybe the machines, the slot machines, maybe. But I don't know, about that. This dice game, well, the woman run it easily. I guess she was sick that day or something. And I took it over.

WASHBURN: How did people have the money to be gambling like that?

ARNOLD: Working in shipyards, working for grocery stores. And drinks were, pretty much, I think it was a dollar and a half for a good drink, at that time. 00:49:00And call booze I think was two dollars or something.

WASHBURN: So do you remember knowing who worked where by how much money they had, or what kind of clothes they wore?

ARNOLD: Oh yes, yes. A lot of used car guys, the new car guys, come in, salesmen. And I knew most of them. From the bar, you know. In fact I bought a couple of new cars from one guy. [laughs]

WASHBURN: I want to see if you can help me make a connection between how much money people had and the fact that everybody had jobs. Can you help me make that connection?

ARNOLD: They was making money so they had to spend it I guess. [laughs] That's 00:50:00all I really know. And the car dealers were I guess the liveliest of them. I don't know how they got paid. Commission maybe. And the real estate people, we had quite a few of those guys. In fact my grandson's married to Billy Burke, his granddaughter. And they were big wheels in the real estate business. [inaudible] And most of them that I knew were from out of state. The local people couldn't see the forest for the trees. {Jule Bleihemer} was from North Dakota. Very, very good. Made lots of money. This guy from Oklahoma, I can't remember his name. 00:51:00Lived up the hill in a great big house; but he's been gone for a long time too. Dead. He was from Oklahoma. Most of them that were successful were from out of town.

WASHBURN: Why do you think?

ARNOLD: Oh, they could see. The sales. The local people didn't care. But from out of state, you could tell, they knew, that this place was gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger. And they were successful.

WASHBURN: I want to talk to you about the gambling. So the gambling wasn't legal 00:52:00at the time?

ARNOLD: No, never was. Where the Eagles is at now was the Wagon Wheel; gambling downstairs, girls upstairs. [laughs] "The 'ors', my son used to say, "the 'ors'."

WASHBURN: How did the Wagon Wheel and the Silver Dollar get away with having gambling around?

ARNOLD: Well, they had to get along. The Silver Dollar had no girls upstairs.

WASHBURN: Did the police officers or the sheriffs know what was going on in 00:53:00these places?

ARNOLD: Oh sure, yes. El Cerrito cops, I knew them all, oh, they knew. Sure. And the sheriff, his guys, his hand was just out once a month. Come by to see how you doing. Sheriff Long, was his name. I was telling you, the Kefauver association, and he was next on the list, but they run out of time, so he never--

WASHBURN: Describe that, what was the Kefauver investigation?

ARNOLD: For taxes. People didn't pay taxes. Especially the gambling. I can't 00:54:00remember the guy's name, but he was the head of all the wineries up in the valley and all over California. When he threw a party, he said, "How can you afford at" He says, "I'm no chimp." He says, "When I put a party, I spend four or five thousand dollars." And he meant it! But I think they nailed him for taxes so--

WASHBURN: So why did the police or the sheriffs, clean up in Richmond then?

ARNOLD: What?

WASHBURN: Why in the end did the sheriffs and the police clean up in Richmond?

ARNOLD: Well, a new regime come in, and promise to clean it up. I know at the Elk's Club, I belonged there, they must have had ten of them; quarters, half dollars machines. Slot machines. So when they close up, they put a thing over them and it look like a wall. Very well hidden. But you know, like the pools, 00:55:00football pools, hundred dollar pools. Put a hundred, win ten thousand. But the sheriff, district attorney, they all had their names on the boards, you know. Once and a while they'd pick it up and run these pools. But they knew they were there.

WASHBURN: People say that when you were working at the Silver Dollar that was El Cerrito police. Did you notice that the police force got bigger, as years went on, to compensate for all the people that moved into town?

ARNOLD: Yes. It got bigger all the time. Ray Carlson was a detective . Marino 00:56:00{Soldarini}, he was a cop. Gene Guidiu, he was a cop, his one arm guy. I guess he lost it in the war. It had some women too. Not too many women, at that time. I think there was one.

WASHBURN: Was there any disruptions, that you can remember between shipyard workers at the Silver Dollar, or in bars around? Other than what you were involved in, was there any fights or violence like that?

ARNOLD: Yes, once and awhile, yes. At the Silver Dollar was--What the hell was 00:57:00his name? Tommy Thompson, Good friend of mine. Big guy. Husky guy. So my wife and I, were having a drink in a booth, and one of these guys popped off to me, and he heard it, this guy. And they were sitting at the bar, and he goes like this, knocked their heads together and threw them on the floor. [laughs] Cause they figured, he's gonna hurt me, you know. What a good customer. Tommy Thompson was his name. Not the guy that's the Secretary of Labor now, but--another Tommy Thompson.

WASHBURN: No, no. Right.

ARNOLD: It was just nice people. Frank somebody. His wife was pregnant. He worked for the phone company. And I was sitting at the end of the bar, and this 00:58:00one navy guy come up and started getting smart with her. And Frank wouldn't do nothing. I says, "Listen Frank. Let me at the son-of-a-bitch." So I knocked him flat on his ass, and I told the other guy, I say "You take him and get your ass out of here. Or I'll get you." [laughs] They took off. And that Frank loved me ever since.

WASHBURN: Did certain bars have reputations for being rougher than others?

ARNOLD: Well, yes. I was in one in San Diego. San Pedro. And that thing would get remodeled every three months, or every three weeks. [laughs] The Merchant Marines used to hit there. Everybody would get gassed up, at that place. Bucket 00:59:00of Blood, they called it.

WASHBURN: What were some of the places in the Richmond/El Cerrito area that had a rougher reputation?

ARNOLD: I really don't know. Because I wasn't looking for them. But I will never forget that Bucket of Blood down in San Pedro. They remodeled that place, I don't know how many times.

WASHBURN: What did people wear when they came into the Silver Dollar?

ARNOLD: It was dressed up. Especially Friday nights, they had on their suits. Not too many ties. And they made pretty good money, I guess, wherever they worked. And Fred belonged to the Richmond Golf Course, so he had friends out there who would come--

WASHBURN: So, I wanted to try and focus as best we can on when the shipyards closed, and how that affected business at the Silver Dollar, or if it did at all. What do you remember about the shipyards' closing while working at the 01:01:00Silver Dollar bar?

ARNOLD: Well, I don't remember when they closed now, but Willamette shipyard took it over, from Kaiser. And I knew all the big wheels there. I was working at Louie's Club at that time. All the foremen, the big wheels would come, for lunch, and after work they would hit the--Sunday mornings they called me Dr. Arnold. I made them fizz. [laughs] The fizz is, Royal Fizz, you know. Brandy, egg. "Dr. Arnold, fix me up."

WASHBURN: To cure the hangover.

ARNOLD: Yes, yes.

WASHBURN: So you were working at the Silver Dollar through '45?

ARNOLD: When the boys got out of the service, they took over. Fred's son and son-in-law. And of course I had to go because the boys' spot to be in. So that's 01:02:00when I went to work at the Townhouse, which is on 10th Street. Not next to the Elk's Club. The Elks' was on the corner. Big building. And they owned that building, the Elks did. And then, who was it, Albert's come to town, and he bought the whole property, which the Townhouse was at. So that's when they closed it down, and I figured it would take two months to do it, build the building and fix up the Townhouse.

WASHBURN: So when did you move from the Silver Dollar to the Townhouse?

ARNOLD: Some time in '45. And then, that's when I sold my house, on 50th Street. 01:03:00Let's see, what did I pay for that? I think I paid forty-eight hundred for it, this brick house, the first house I bought, where we lived. From the apartments. And I think we paid forty-eight hundred, twenty-eight dollars a month payments. Some guy next to me worked at Mare Island. He says, "Jack you better sell, everything's going to go down!" So he sold, I waited a little while, and I sold for eight-something thousand. So that's, we went on vacation in Colorado. Because I was going to come back, and open up the new Townhouse Bar.

WASHBURN: So the boys got out of service, sometime in '45. And you had to find a 01:05:00new job. How did you find work down at the Townhouse?

ARNOLD: They heard about me. Honest, good bouncer. [laughs] Anyhow, I went back to Colorado on vacation.

WASHBURN: For who?

ARNOLD: Townhouse, after remodeling. Albert's was building this place. So after awhile I thought, well hell, I just, back here, I might as well buy a place while I'm here you know, I had some money. Sold the house on 50th Street. So, this place was for sale, between [Walserberg] and [LaVida], called "The Halfway House." And it was an after-hours joint. So I bought it, and it did pretty good. 01:06:00Dances on Friday and Saturday nights. Filled it up. These guys uptown, got jealous, that them all come out and drink at my place, you know? The owners of these other bars in [Walserberg]. So, they called up the ABC people and closed me down. It was twelve o'clock, I'd close. Like it was here too, was twelve. Until, I think it was July, the summer of '45 that they took that off and you could stay open until two. But before that, you had to close at twelve. But there were after-hours joints here too.

WASHBURN: Describe what an after-hours joint is. Kind of a simple question, but what's an after-hours joint?

ARNOLD: Well, you're supposed to close at twelve, you stay open until two! You 01:07:00get all the drunks and [laughs] people having a good time, and they don't want to go home at twelve. That's when you make the money. So that's what happened back there. So her dad was a great politician back there. County Assessor for four terms. And he says, "Come on, we'll go to Denver. I know the people. Go up there and get another license." So I come back, and the snow's the worst that they had in fifty years. So that closed me up. The snow jobs. That's when they push hay in the airplanes and herd the cattle and deer, drop bales of hay, so they could eat. I mean, it was deep. So then I come back to El Cerrito 01:08:00and--That's when I went to work down at the Mauna Club.

WASHBURN: Did you not work at the Townhouse first? You worked at the Mauna before the Townhouse?

ARNOLD: No. When I come back from Colorado.

WASHBURN: When did you work at the Townhouse?

ARNOLD: '45. From the Silver Dollar to there.

WASHBURN: Yes, I wanted to talk a little bit about the difference. Because the Townhouse, where was the Townhouse located?

ARNOLD: Between Macdonald, on 10th Street and Nevin, on the west side of 10th Street.

WASHBURN: How was it different from the Silver Dollar? I mean, it was different location, but what was the clientele like?

ARNOLD: Oh it was good clientele. Lawyers, doctors. And the bus stop in front of the place. Shipyard workers, everybody come in, going home drinks and stuff. It 01:09:00was good; it was a nice place. All of the Elks people, would hit there before going up. And they had a nice bar at the Elks', too. Besides their slot machines. [laughs]

WASHBURN: So if you walked into the Townhouse, what was the layout like, what was it like? Tables or booths, what was it like?

ARNOLD: Well, walking in, there was a liquor store right there. George Baldwin run the liquor store. And there was a big bar, nice bar. Must have had about thirty stools on it. And then on the other side was narrow, but they had booths. And we had some fisticuffs in there once and awhile too.

WASHBURN: What are fisticuffs?

ARNOLD: Fights. Not too bad but--

WASHBURN: At the Silver Dollar, was it mostly white that came into the Silver Dollar?

ARNOLD: Oh yes, yes. At that time, there were Indians. You weren't supposed to feed Indians.

WASHBURN: You weren't supposed to give liquor to Indians.

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: Why is that?

ARNOLD: Because they couldn't handle the booze. And it was a law that, I don't know if it was a law, but if a guy was covered, said "Hey you're an Indian, you can't drink in here." Didn't treat them nice, at that time. Of course I grew up since then so I know, I was wrong.

WASHBURN: Well how would you know who was an Indian and who wasn't an Indian?

ARNOLD: I just said if you're black you're an Indian. Made them feel good, they'd "No, I'm an Indian." Refuse them.

WASHBURN: So there was a law on the books saying, you can't serve to Indians.

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: So who would you classify was Indians or non-Indians?

ARNOLD: Well, you weren't that black?

WASHBURN: So if somebody was darker skinned, you'd just say, "I can't serve to Indians."

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: And what would they say in response to you?

ARNOLD: Oh I don't know. I can't think of it.

WASHBURN: Well would they say like, maybe, "I'm not Indian"?

ARNOLD: Yes, but. We didn't get too many.

WASHBURN: But they get the idea.

ARNOLD: They got the idea, yes. But there was other bars where they hung out, I guess. Down Macdonald, west Macdonald. And North Richmond, they had their own places there. Bars.

WASHBURN: Well, you know, as I interview people in the Mexican community there 01:12:00was a lot of Mexican folks who lived down, by the Townhouse, by 10th Street. Did you have Mexican folks coming in to The Townhouse sometimes?

ARNOLD: Oh yes, yes. We had some good friends down that way. Especially around St. Mark's Church. Quite a few. They all worked at Standard Oil, most of them. Laborers. [Joselaya], he was an electrician out there.

WASHBURN: So, but you'd serve the Mexican folks?

ARNOLD: Yes, yes.

WASHBURN: Interesting. So, was the clientele that was down at the Townhouse, would you describe it as any different from what was up at the Silver Dollar?

ARNOLD: Yes, well its more professional people went there. In the mornings, 01:13:00McCracken's, store. Clothing store, real nice store, for a men's store. Across the street from him was Johnson's. Harold and Clarence Johnson. Brothers. Nice store. They would meet at the Townhouse. And Joe Piano, the guy who I was talking about he had liquor. There'd be about four or five of them. And they'd meet down there and have coffee, and booze. Every morning they'd be there. The city fathers of Richmond in that time.

WASHBURN: So it was a very, seemed like a pretty reputable place.

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: Was there a difference in what you were making, from the--

ARNOLD: Silver Dollar? No, same. We were union. That's the only place that I've ever worked that I didn't get more than union pay was the Townhouse. I got over paid, I kept all my tips, you know.

WASHBURN: Well that's how it is for every place. So was there gambling also at the Townhouse?

ARNOLD: No. No machines there. Like I said, the bus would stop right in front. But they had them up at the Elks, right on the corner. And I don't think the rest of them down there had it either. The Hub, I don't think they had any machines. That was Bill Louis's place. And then he sold out and had a liquor store on 23rd. And after there he bought a friend of mines', the Rancho, down on 01:15:00San Pablo Dam Road. You know where that is? He bought that place.

WASHBURN: Why don't you think there were any machines at the Townhouse, and there were some at the Silver Dollar?

ARNOLD: I don't know. I think, well, hell, the chief of police was probably not fooled, and he knew they was having them up. District Attorney, he played, up there. Still, they had them at the Elks'. Of course that's a closed club. That's probably why. [Inaudible] owned it, at that time. [inaudible] owned it again.

WASHBURN: Did the people who were coming into the Townhouse, did you notice any 01:16:00talk about, people losing jobs, who were coming in there? Did some regulars, who came in, stop buying so many drinks because they didn't have the same amount of money, or--

ARNOLD: I think, no, uh-uh. The Ford Plant was open at that time, and a lot of people from there used to come to the Townhouse. A dozen of people worked there. Retired, old people, you know. Still working up there. Not now, but I mean, at that time. The Ford Plant was still working then, down by the waterfront. I see they're going to try to make a museum or something like that.

WASHBURN: [inaudible] a redevelopment somehow.

ARNOLD: That's--And a lot of shipyard people come there too, with their hard 01:17:00hats, all dressed up with their hard hats. [inaudible] I used to get a bang of that. One day, come over, he says, "I don't know whether they're going to fail me out there," he'd been working there for six months, never cashed a check. He didn't know what a check was.. I say, "Well, we get paid by check." He says, "What's that for?" He says, "You can just go to the bank and they'll cash it for you." He didn't know. Some Okie, you know, from Arkansas. He didn't know what a check was. [laughs] Never had them. Sure he had a stack of checks.

WASHBURN: So how was he getting by, you think?

ARNOLD: He's spending his money from when he left home, saved money. He said, 01:18:00"I'm about to run out of money. He didn't know when gonna get paid." That was true. There's a lot of dumb guys like that at that time.

WASHBURN: Yes, I've heard stories like that, too. Yes, a lot of stories like that. Did you get to know any shipyard workers pretty well?

ARNOLD: Oh yes, yes. Especially when I went up [inaudible].

WASHBURN: Could you tell who, when they came to the bar, it seemed like a little bit of a different culture than it is now. When were the popular hours to come in and have a drink?

ARNOLD: I always had a full house when I come to work, and that was six o'clock. 01:19:00So I probably got there at four or five. There was two guys working behind the bar. That was the only place that had two guys working. It should have been a lot of places that should have had two guys, would have made more money. Back at Louis, it should have helped me out, just a little help, you know. That's how it was, back and forth, back and forth, run, run, run. Full house in the bar, backrooms are full. [inaudible]

WASHBURN: Well how did you-- Did you know who at the townhouse was? Could you 01:20:00tell by the way they dressed? Where they worked?

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: How could you tell?

ARNOLD: Well, I could tell. I knew, anyway, most of the bigwigs at Standard Oil. And the girls next door, one of them, had a beauty parlor. They were always coming in after working hours, having a toddy. In the corner was the lagoon, the got bath flowers there. That was like a south island place; palm trees, big fish, rich guys.

WASHBURN: You were saying how could you--folks came in suits and real nice clothes and all?

ARNOLD: I just knew it. That's the way they dressed, anyway. Those guys are like today.

WASHBURN: People used to get pretty spiffed up, huh?

ARNOLD: Yes, especially all the bosses got dressed up pretty good out there. They're big wheels.

WASHBURN: But they didn't live there by The Townhouse, did they?

ARNOLD: I don't know where they lived. In Richmond.

WASHBURN: Like Mira Vista or something?

ARNOLD: Yes. The Johnson boys they lived up the hill that way. McCracken, I don't where in the world he lived. His wife, she owned The Rancho.[inaudible]. He opened the Horseshoe up in[inaudible] and I guess he's still there. I don't 01:23:00know, he's probably dead by now, for four or five years. In fact he and his wife, at that time, worked together at The Townhouse. We all had kids at about the same time, so everybody was kidless when we decided to have a big party. My boy was born in August and she had a boy that was born in December or close to there and Pete had a baby at about the same time. All three of us had a baby at about the same time.

WASHBURN: Well, I think that's about as much as I was thinking about talking about today. Because we've already talked for about a half an hour or so. Could 01:24:00we meet at another time, maybe in a couple of weeks or so?

ARNOLD: Yes, sure.

WASHBURN: Do it again?

ARNOLD: Yes.

WASHBURN: Because I really didn't prepare my past talking about The Townhouse, so I'd like to, you know, write some things down. Hopefully next time I can bring in some photos like this or maybe you guys can dig up some photos, too.

ARNOLD: Yes, see if she can find some.