Don and Lucy Campbell | Interview 1 | February 8, 2012

REDMAN: Today is February 8, 2012. My name is Sam Redman, and I'm in Berkeley, California today, sitting down with Don and Lucy Campbell. We'll spend most of our time today speaking about life in the Bay Area, specifically Berkeley and San Francisco--before, during and after World War II. But I'd also like to learn, in particular, a little bit about what life was like before the war and then how the two of you met and how you got involved on campus at UC Berkeley. But before we really dive in, I'd like for both of you just to state your name and then spell it for me, if you wouldn't mind. Don, could we start with you?

DON CAMPBELL: Fine. The name is Donald Campbell. Donald is D-O-N-A-L-D, and Campbell is C-A-M-P-B-E-double L.

REDMAN: Perfect. And Lucy?

LUCY CAMPBELL: My name is Lucy Harrison Campbell. L-U-C-Y, H-A-double R-I-S-O N, Campbell.

REDMAN: Would you mind both telling me where you were born?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, who goes first?

REDMAN: Go ahead. You can go Lucy, and then we'll jump to Don.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Okay. I was born in San Francisco, in 1926.

REDMAN: Don?

DON CAMPBELL: Born in Berkeley, in 1923.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oakland, wasn't it?

DON CAMPBELL: Actually, yeah. We lived in Berkeley, but the hospital was Fabiola, in Oakland.

REDMAN: What I'd like to do, I'm just going to double check our audio levels. No, that's perfect. You guys are doing great. [Lucy laughs] The very first thing 00:02:00that I'd like to ask is pretty simple. I'd like to get a feel for who your parents were. So Don, your parents lived in Berkeley?

DON CAMPBELL: My parents lived in Berkeley.

REDMAN: Where were they from, originally?

DON CAMPBELL: My father was born and raised in Sonoma, and my mother was born and raised in Berkeley.

REDMAN: So they were from California.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

REDMAN: And did your family go back several generations in California? Do you have some idea of that or do you know?

DON CAMPBELL: A generation. My father's parents came out to Sonoma.

REDMAN: And what did they do there?

DON CAMPBELL: They had a prune-farm ranch.

REDMAN: And Lucy, how about your parents? Had they been in California?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes, my father was born in San Francisco. My mother was born in Berkeley. My father was a lawyer, and I grew up in the city.

REDMAN: Do you know what brought him out to California, initially?

LUCY CAMPBELL: My father?

REDMAN: Yes.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, he was born there. His parents--his mother was born there. His father, I believe, was born in Sydney, Australia. My mother's parents, her mother was born in California and the father was born in South Carolina.

REDMAN: Do you have any idea what brought the family out, then?

LUCY CAMPBELL: From South Carolina? Oh, yeah. Family came out after the Civil War and settled in Santa Barbara--in Montecito.

REDMAN: And did they start farming then there?

LUCY CAMPBELL: No. No, they were lawyers. The grandfather was a lawyer, and then my mother's father became a lawyer. He came out to California as a young boy.

REDMAN: So law is something that was passed down in the family, of sorts?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right. My mother actually had passed the bar, and so she was a lawyer too.

REDMAN: Wow, that's amazing for--

LUCY CAMPBELL: At that time. Yes.

REDMAN: --her generation at that time. That's really interesting. So did she stay on in law, as well?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, she did some legal work, but she got her PhD at Cal in German. She was a linguist, studied lots of languages, and wrote a couple of books and did translations.

REDMAN: And what was her name?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Her name was Margaret Hayne, H-A-Y-N-E.

REDMAN: We'll get back to that in a little bit, because that sounds really interesting. [phone rings]

LUCY CAMPBELL: Just let that go.

REDMAN: That's fine. So Lucy, is it all right if I begin with a few questions about your childhood for you? Then I'm going to repeat, more or less the same questions for Don.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Fine.

REDMAN: [phone keeps ringing; comments between them]

So Lucy, I'd like to hear about what San Francisco was like, in particular, when you were growing up as a small girl, what San Francisco might've been like before the war.

LUCY CAMPBELL: It was great.

REDMAN: Tell me about it.

LUCY CAMPBELL: It was lovely. It was a wonderful city, I thought. I enjoyed living and growing up there very much.

REDMAN: Can you tell me about what the different neighborhoods might've been like in that era? Maybe thinking about what Chinatown, or North Beach, or Fisherman's Wharf or the Embarcadero might've been like? Can you describe--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I didn't know about the Embarcadero. We lived in the area called Pacific Heights, which is above the Marina and fairly near the Presidio. And I went to school near there, and my life revolved around that area more. But of 00:06:00course, they had the opera and Golden Gate Park, theater, museums. There was a lot going on in San Francisco.

REDMAN: So you remember a lot of activity--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

REDMAN: --in those and people.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: It must've been a busy place for a small kid to--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right, right.

REDMAN: Quite an exciting place.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: Now, I want to ask both of you-- this was a question I was going to jump to a little later on but it seems appropriate now. As I walked in, I saw two magnificent bridges that would've been constructed about the time you were in junior high/high school I suspect.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, the Golden Gate Bridge was built in '37, I believe.

REDMAN: I think it opened '37, right?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: So '36 would've been sort of the final--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah. And I walked across it the first day. I wore cowboy clothes, like a 49er.

REDMAN: Wow!

LUCY CAMPBELL: [chuckles] And I won't forget it.

REDMAN: Could you tell me what that experience was like?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, I thought it was pretty exciting.

REDMAN: A lot of people?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. And they had their big fireworks, parades, and all this kind of thing.

REDMAN: Now, at about the same time--of course the Bay Bridge had opened. I'm wondering if either of you had any thoughts about both of those bridges going up at the same time.

LUCY CAMPBELL: [over Redman, to Don] Did you know about the Bay Bridge? I didn't know much about the Bay Bridge, because my life was there.

DON CAMPBELL: In Berkeley, I think there was more anticipation, as it brought Berkeley closer to San Francisco.

REDMAN: So it almost felt like a geographic connection? That it was so much easier to get to San Francisco that it almost brought San Francisco closer to Berkeley.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah. When I was a little boy, we used to take Key System down to the ferry and take the ferry across. Then we had trains--one on the lower deck of the Bay Bridge. It was a slow step up.

REDMAN: So the Key System expanded to include the lower deck of the Bay Bridge--is that correct?

DON CAMPBELL: It changed, yes. And really, it kept a few ferries. But--basically that was the means.

REDMAN: So prior to the war, to get over to San Francisco from Berkeley, you would've had to go down to the Oakland Mole. Is that--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: That's right.

DON CAMPBELL: Yes.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Take the ferry.

REDMAN: To take the ferry. And now the opening of the bridges really opened up a new transportation method to get over there.

DON CAMPBELL: It did.

LUCY CAMPBELL: A big time was the World's Fair at Treasure Island.

REDMAN: Tell me about that--in 1939?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes.

REDMAN: So I understand that that partly was there to celebrate the opening of these two magnificent bridges. One of them going across the fair site, Treasure Island. Can you tell me a little bit about going to Treasure Island?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, it was wonderful. They had great exhibits. I went there quite frequently, actually, with my family.

REDMAN: So it was the type of thing that you could go back?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh. Oh, yes. Yes.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

REDMAN: Would there be different acts or different performances happening at different times?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, but it was more the exhibitions. They had a wonderful one on the Indians of the United States.

REDMAN: Can you tell me about that? I understand that the Smithsonian and other big exhibits would be brought together from around the US and around the world, and different countries would send their exhibitions.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: Did any of those have a particular--you mentioned the Native American exhibitions, were there any other exhibits--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, actually, I think the exhibits of the different countries were more prevalent in New York for their World's Fair. We didn't have so much of that, I didn't feel.

REDMAN: But in particular, Indian exhibitions were interesting to you?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. We had a friend who happened to be the head of it. And my mother and I were in New Mexico, and we met two of the Indians who came out 00:10:00here. [chuckles] She took them out to Sea Cliff. They'd never seen the ocean in their lives, so they were just amazed.

REDMAN: That must have been quite an experience for them going--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes!

REDMAN: Did you say New Mexico?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: New Mexico out to California for the first time.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. They'd never seen--

REDMAN: Seeing this massive fair and then seeing the--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Ocean, yes. Any rate, it was an interesting time.

REDMAN: So that must've been an exciting time for the Bay Area in general.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

LUCY CAMPBELL: It was.

REDMAN: Can you talk a little bit about that, especially emerging from the context of the Great Depression, prior to that? Maybe we could go back to that just for a moment. Growing up in sort of tough economic times for a lot of people, can you talk about the effect of the Great Depression on the city of San Francisco? You guys were pretty young--

LUCY CAMPBELL: We were young, yeah.

REDMAN: --around the time of the crash, so I'm wondering if there are early memories around the dinner table, of parents talking about money or anything, or 00:11:00jobs or anything like that. Or did your parents shelter you from that a little bit?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, they didn't talk much about that. My father was very busy being a lawyer.

REDMAN: It wasn't their primary concern.

DON CAMPBELL: No.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, maybe it was, but we didn't-- [laughs]

REDMAN: They didn't express it.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Didn't share it. [laughs] How about you? I would've been five, six years old, so--

REDMAN: Pretty young, pretty young.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Pretty young.

REDMAN: Yeah. Yeah. How about you, Don?

DON CAMPBELL: More than that, because there was not much. I was much more aware of the great strike on the waterfront they had, with Harry Bridges. That affected, oh gasoline for cars and so much business and activity.

REDMAN: So it really shut down a lot of the activity.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, why, yes.

REDMAN: So it's interesting because frequently people talk about how hard it was 00:12:00to get gas during the war.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yeah. That's right.

REDMAN: But during the strike, prior to the war, there would've been another gas shortage I suspect.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I don't know, was there?

DON CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: So it was hard to get around, with the gas shortage in particular?

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah, my father, I remember he had to load up with gas for the week.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, really?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

LUCY CAMPBELL: At that time, interesting.

REDMAN: FDR, when he assumes office, his response to the Great Depression is to launch all of these New Deal initiatives. Especially early on, in the first administration, there would've been things like NRA stickers or a poster or a thing like that in a business shop. Do you recall those sorts of symbols or--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well I do because my father was head of the Democrats West of the Mississippi. So he was very involved in and interested in politics.

REDMAN: My next question was going to be if your parents had particularly strong 00:13:00attitudes towards FDR.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: And they were supporters obviously.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right.

REDMAN: And Don, how about your parents?

DON CAMPBELL: No, we were on the other ticket. [laughs]

REDMAN: All right. So they maybe were more the California Republican tradition. I think of, in particular, Herbert Hoover as being a big figure.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Did you like him?

DON CAMPBELL: Yes. He was quite a symbol. I think he was rather quiet and set and firm.

REDMAN: So FDR then, personality-wise especially, he was a very different figure.

DON CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes.

REDMAN: Especially for people of your generation, I understand that fireside chats were quite important, that whole families--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right.

REDMAN: --would sit down around the radio and listen to those.

DON CAMPBELL: That was smart. It was good.

REDMAN: It was a smart thing for FDR to do.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah. Yeah.

REDMAN: Can you talk a little bit about what that experience might've been like? 00:14:00Do you recall sitting and listening to the radio at all?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Not too much.

DON CAMPBELL: I don't. I don't.

REDMAN: So that wasn't a part of family life growing up for you, the radio?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Sitting around the radio? Not really.

REDMAN: Let's talk about what everyday life might've been like, growing up as small kids. What was it like to go to school each day? Who did chores in your house growing up? Talk about that a little, if you would.

LUCY CAMPBELL: [chuckles] Well, I walked to school. Unless I got a ride from my father, eight blocks away. It was a girls school. So I went to a private girls school through twelfth grade, until I came to the university. I also went horse-back riding. So I took the streetcar out to the riding stables and rode horses in Golden Gate Park.

REDMAN: That must've been a pretty spectacular--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, it was fun, yeah.

REDMAN: --activity for a small girl.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right. Yeah. I had piano lessons and dance lessons. And then I liked sports a lot, so this school also had a place where we could play hockey, basketball, baseball--what else did I play?

REDMAN: So you were pretty active.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yeah. So I went to school--played sports--I came home and had dinner and studied--studied.

REDMAN: That would be a typical day for you?

LUCY CAMPBELL: That would be my--

REDMAN: Now, about studying, what were some of your favorite subjects growing up? Did you have subjects in school--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: --that you enjoyed or subjects that you didn't like very much?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well personally, I wasn't very crazy about math. But we had to take three years. I liked history. I liked history. [laughs] I think that was probably my favorite subject.

REDMAN: Don, how about you?

DON CAMPBELL: I can also say history was my favorite subject. In turn, another 00:16:00subject, I remember taking Latin. My teacher used to make a mark on my report card: "weak in analysis." [laughs]

LUCY CAMPBELL: Weak in construction.

DON CAMPBELL: And weak in construction. Then I did start Spanish one year in high school before going to college.

REDMAN: Your parents--it sounds like they had a strong educational background. Did they encourage you in school? Or did they essentially--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: --leave you to your own devices?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, no.

REDMAN: Or were they pretty strict, in terms of getting--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, there were expectations. They wanted to know what we were taking and how we were doing.

LUCY CAMPBELL: We didn't have much leeway, what we could take. We had to take a 00:17:00strong academic course, college preparatory. But there was never any thought of not going to college.

REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about what social life might've been like for high schoolers in those eras. Were there activities? We talked a little bit about sports. Were there other things, like dances or social activities, that you--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: There were in San Francisco. They had dances. The weekends, there were--of course there weren't any boys in school, which was a big adjustment when I came to the university.

REDMAN: Right, yeah. I can imagine.

LUCY CAMPBELL: So it's more of a date. We're not as friends as much.

REDMAN: I see. So those dances, as a high "schooler," might have been more of an informal thing? There weren't expectations?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, no, they were formal. We wore dresses. The boys, men, were all dressed up with suits. People dressed a lot more.

REDMAN: So what would be the expectation of what you would wear--like a young woman--what a young woman would wear to one of these dances? I imagine there was sort of--

LUCY CAMPBELL: A dress.

REDMAN: You'd wear a long, formal dress.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. On special occasions.

REDMAN: And the young men would wear suits or tuxedoes?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think they wore suits. Tuxedoes for formal.

REDMAN: Tuxedoes. I see.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Maybe they wore just suits?

DON CAMPBELL: Well there were other kinds of dances too.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, they were the informals and the assemblies. Yes, other kinds would be just regular clothes. We didn't wear pants--at least at that time.

REDMAN: I understand that that was a big difference between life before the war and life after the war. It may have been gradual adaptation of clothing. But prior to World War II, especially, it would've been very, very uncommon to see a 00:19:00woman wearing pants.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right. And I look at the picture--I have my yearbooks and I look back. We all wore skirts or dresses.

REDMAN: So that was a big--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. And the men looked--well, like Don is. You didn't see them in jeans.

REDMAN: Right, blue jeans are a pretty recent--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, it was after the war.

REDMAN: --adaptation in terms of every day wear.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right.

REDMAN: So Don, do you have anything to add in terms of growing up on this side of the bay, in Berkeley? Thinking about maybe--was life any different in terms of looking at the big city--in how you grew up?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, I did not--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Boy Scouts.

DON CAMPBELL: What's that?

LUCY CAMPBELL: In Boy Scouts.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah. I'll start in with a very straight-laced deal. I was in Boy Scouts. And I got Eagle, too! Yes, as my son did and then a grandson. I was very proud of them.

REDMAN: What a tradition. That's amazing.

DON CAMPBELL: You bet. But we did do scouts. Then in turn, in high school, why, we had parties and all but it was not formal attire.

REDMAN: Then how about differences in school? You went to an all-girls school. Don, did you--

DON CAMPBELL: Co-education.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Public.

REDMAN: In Oakland.

DON CAMPBELL: Berkeley High School.

REDMAN: Ah, Berkeley High School. Can you tell me a little bit about what that was like? Did you have favorite teachers and favorite activities at Berkeley High School in those days?

DON CAMPBELL: You might say you had a favorite teacher if she or he was teaching the subject that you liked.

REDMAN: So history in particular, you maybe had good history teachers--

DON CAMPBELL: We did, and that was wonderful. I remember I took public speaking, and we had a wonderful teacher who would stand in the back of the room and throw erasers and all things [Redman laughs] around while you were talking to make you learn to concentrate and keep on your subject. It was wonderful. It was good for us.

REDMAN: Now, in a public speaking class like that--I know today one of the things that they'll do with students is have them debate current events.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

REDMAN: Was that one of the things that was an activity in those days, in public speaking classes?

DON CAMPBELL: Not much, but there was. Otherwise, it was some historical thing.

REDMAN: I'm curious if you have any particular recollections of things like that being major events in the thirties. I know a lot of people were debating, in those days, whether or not the United States should get into the war effort. Prior to Pearl Harbor, there was some division, I understand. Some people who said we should stay out of the war and some people who thought maybe we should help Britain in the effort. Was that a topic of debate in California at that time? Or did that seem a little distant?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, it was not to me, but that was more because of my timing. Six months after the war--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Pearl Harbor?

DON CAMPBELL: Yes, Pearl Harbor--I graduated from high school and then went to college.

REDMAN: I've asked a number of people who were Berkeley college students at the time of Pearl Harbor what it was like to be a college student at that time. I understand it was right in the midst of finals. December 7, 1941.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah, yeah.

REDMAN: I'd like to ask both of you if you could tell me a little bit about what Pearl Harbor might've been like for a San Francisco high school student or a Berkeley high school student in those days. What do you remember about Pearl Harbor?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well I remember I was in the car with my family coming home from church and it came on the radio, what had happened, the car radio. Of course, then everything went from there. I graduated in '43 from high school, and our 00:23:00graduating class couldn't have a regular yearbook. We used the money to buy an ambulance. So we didn't have a regular hardback like they'd had for years. So our particular graduating class--

REDMAN: For the yearbook?

LUCY CAMPBELL: For the yearbook--was just a paper cover.

REDMAN: So right away--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. I think the difference at that time--everybody, once there was Pearl Harbor and the boys were being drafted, it was a whole-hearted effort by everyone. It really was. And even at Cal, when they had the uniforms, they'd wear their navy outfits at parties, fraternity parties or whatever. And it was a very different feeling than later, of course.

REDMAN: That's a topic I'd like to get into much more, then, when we get to Cal too.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Okay.

REDMAN: But Don, maybe I could ask about your recollections of Pearl Harbor, before we move on.

DON CAMPBELL: Well, it was in my freshman year of college, and it was just a big thing for us. Not knowing what to do, and would we be able to continue on to college, or would we not, whatever it might be. Well, I was able to go on and I started college, therefore, on the odd semester. I could not wait. You had to keep going. So in January of '41, I was into college.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, before that. You were class of '44.

DON CAMPBELL: Well, Pearl Harbor was--

LUCY CAMPBELL: '41.

DON CAMPBELL: '40. Then January '41, I--

REDMAN: Was in at Cal.

DON CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes.

REDMAN: I'll go back to Lucy in just a moment. What was it like to sign up as a 00:25:00young man knowing that the draft was going to be enacted and that men of your generation were going to go off? You knew you wanted to continue school. What was it like to register on campus at that time?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, I wanted to register and get in as much schooling as I could.

LUCY CAMPBELL: But you were ROTC.

DON CAMPBELL: At that time Cal was a land-grant college, and therefore they had ROTC. Which meant either Navy, Army, and I think they enlarged it more than that to Marines or Air Force later. But at any rate, my eyes weren't quite good enough to make the Navy, and so I made the Army. [chuckles] That was all well and good, until I became a corporal in the ROTC, and I was given my corporal 00:26:00stripes to sew onto my arm. I hadn't paid too much attention to it all. My mother said she would sew the one. Having looked and seen pictures of the British, she sewed them on upside-down.

REDMAN: Ooh! [Lucy laughs]

DON CAMPBELL: So when I came to school the next time with this jacket to wear it, boy, I was hustled right out of--[they laugh]

REDMAN: That's a good story. So did you start ROTC pretty much right away?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, right off.

LUCY CAMPBELL: You had to.

DON CAMPBELL: Right off. You had to.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Everybody was.

DON CAMPBELL: With a land-grant college, you had to do it.

REDMAN: That's a really great point. Let's get back to that in a moment. Before that, though, I'd like to ask one more question about high school that I think gets into Cal as well. Thinking about Japanese Americans that you may have known around that time--your school was a private all-girls school at the time. So my 00:27:00assumption might be that there weren't at that time any Japanese-American students with you. But maybe there were Japanese Americans living in the neighborhood, or family friends, or anything like that--that you knew at that time.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, we had Japanese help in the house. My mother had studied Japanese. That was one of her languages. Any rate, no, there were no Japanese in our school. Totally changed now, but at the time, there weren't any. And I really didn't know any except the help we had in our house.

REDMAN: Do you recall their reaction to the news of Pearl Harbor, and then subsequently, only a couple months later, the order to relocate?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. In fact, my family kept a lot of their belongings while they had to go to camp. Then, after the war, they came and got their things.

REDMAN: Did they continue working for your parents, or did they move--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: No, by that time, it was later on.

REDMAN: And they'd--

LUCY CAMPBELL: One died in the camp who had been with us for many years.

REDMAN: Was that hard for your parents? Did they talk about that at all during the war?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. They thought it was terrible.

REDMAN: So they were upset by it.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, because a lot of them were American citizens. It was an awful thing.

REDMAN: So did this include the help that you had? Were they American citizens, do you know?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I'm not positive. But some were, yes.

REDMAN: And that was how your parents had felt about it.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. Legally, it was wrong.

REDMAN: So this would've been a normal topic of conversation?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: Oh, that's very interesting--especially in the context of the overwhelming patriotism and the people getting behind the war effort.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. But everybody was behind the war effort. But these were 00:29:00American citizens, too.

REDMAN: So something felt off.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah. And why were they singled out, kind of? Well, I know why, but anyway.

REDMAN: It was still a confusing thing to parse out.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah, right.

REDMAN: Don, how about you? I presume at that time, there would've been a fairly sizeable number of Japanese American students at Berkeley High School.

DON CAMPBELL: There were.

REDMAN: The Japanese American community was closer to the water in terms of geographic separation. So that would be, what, West Berkeley? Sort of the industrial section of town?

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah, or between the industrial on up towards the Berkeley campus.

REDMAN: Can you talk a little bit about Japanese-American students at all that you knew or anyone?

DON CAMPBELL: I liked them.

REDMAN: So you had friends.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, indeed. They were nice guys.

REDMAN: You knew some young men who were Japanese American.

DON CAMPBELL: In my class. Oh, yes. I did, I liked them. And they were good 00:30:00students. They were very diligent. And they were out for sports and--

REDMAN: So they were active and involved young American kids.

DON CAMPBELL: They were.

REDMAN: The order then, for them to relocate, did that surprise you at that time? Or you understood, in the context? Or how did you feel about that announcement?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, I understand them doing it, but I was shocked.

REDMAN: Was there any anger about that? Or was it something that kind of got lost in the huge war that was looming?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, yeah, it was something much bigger than a little ole' high school guy. But still, at the same time, it really put a hole in things. They 00:31:00were good guys, and they were good students and they were into the sports and--

REDMAN: So that bothered you, obviously?

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah.

REDMAN: Let's jump to Cal. Can I get both of your first reactions for-- I understand that you grew up in the Bay Area, and you grew up in Berkeley. So you had probably been on campus a number of times, or were familiar with campus in some way. What was it like, though, to start as a student at Berkeley, as a college student? Could you both give me a few words on what it was like to start out at college?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, living in Berkeley and after going to Berkeley High School to go to Cal, it was great. I'd always had such a high feeling towards the school--liked their sports. Just everything about it was great and wonderful. So 00:32:00to now be, of myself, a student there, it was very exciting.

REDMAN: Lucy, would you mind sharing a few thoughts on recalling what it was like to first go to Cal?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, it was exciting. Here, from a small private school to suddenly going to a big university, with men, it was an experience. [laughs]

REDMAN: I can imagine. I can imagine. I'm just going to check and make sure we're doing well on the amount of tape and such--looks good. I'd like to ask about what social life might've been like, then, for a young woman at Berkeley who had never interacted in a coed sort of setting.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah. When I started, I joined a sorority.

REDMAN: I see. Could I ask what sorority?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Theta. And we were fairly near the campus. And of course, we were 00:33:00very near Callahan Hall, where the Navy ROTC and V-12 was. So we were very aware of a lot of military on campus. They'd march up and down Bancroft. And there were Marines in the fraternity behind us who would call out to our sleeping porch and tell us to "wake up."

REDMAN: I assume that fairly quickly they started doing USO dances, if not on campus then all around the Bay Area.

LUCY CAMPBELL: They did, but I was not involved in them.

REDMAN: I understand that sororities did a number of things like war bond drives or blood drives--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right.

REDMAN: --or scrap metal drives, and they volunteered a lot during the war.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right.

REDMAN: Can you talk about what sorority life might've been like in that way?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I myself [chuckles] tried to knit a sweater, through the Red Cross. Not too successfully. And I rolled bandages. Then the main thing is I became a nurse's aide. And they gave the course at the campus through the Red 00:34:00Cross. So they had a course at the campus, and then we trained at Berkeley General, which is now Herrick Hospital. Then I went down to Permanente Hospital, Kaiser, and it was filled with the shipyard workers. I used to go there in the evening, once a week.

REDMAN: When did you start doing that work, then, at Kaiser? When did do--do you remember?

LUCY CAMPBELL: After I finished my course. I think it was about February 1945.

REDMAN: So it still would've been during the war?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. You see, the thing is, a lot of the nurses joined in the war and they were gone. So we substituted, in a mild way, for them.

REDMAN: I understand that around that time, maybe a little later, '43, '44, you 00:35:00had mentioned the number of uniformed soldiers on campus who were--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: --many of them, doing training programs--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right.

REDMAN: --V-12 programs, for instance. But I understand that eventually there was so much need that they began taking over fraternities.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right.

REDMAN: Where a number of the--and so many of the young men were in the military anyway, I suspect. But then also the International House eventually became--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Callaghan Hall.

REDMAN: Right. Can you talk a little bit about Callaghan Hall?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, I just knew it as Callaghan Hall. I didn't know it as the I-House.

REDMAN: Is that right?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah. Yes it was filled with servicemen--with the Navy V-12 or ROTC.

REDMAN: So you were unfamiliar with it with its prior name of being the International House--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Not really.

REDMAN: --that became again--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: But then it was Callaghan Hall. I believe it was named for some--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Admiral. Admiral Callaghan. UC Alumnus--Commander of the USS San Francisco.

REDMAN: Don, how about you? Were you familiar with International House before?

DON CAMPBELL: I was.

REDMAN: Because of your being at Berkeley I suppose.

DON CAMPBELL: That is right, and some of the sports that they did at the Cal Berkeley campus, why, we would go by the Callaghan Hall. And/or they would have a gathering afterwards and the student athlete participants would--

REDMAN: Be there to--

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah, yeah.

REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about Memorial Stadium in those days. Was it fun to go to games?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Of course.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, yes!

REDMAN: It's a storied rivalry, the Big Game, of course. But it must've been fun to go to games on campus in that era.

DON CAMPBELL: Indeed.

REDMAN: Were there particular memories that you had as--?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, from my fraternity, I had a few fellows who were on the football team. They were good players, but it's also fair to say that a lot of 00:37:00the big ace jocks were off in the service. These were younger fellows that were just coming along, so they got the positions.

REDMAN: So they kept football going--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, they did.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, yeah.

REDMAN: --throughout the duration of the war. Was that true with other sports, as well? Did it seem like--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I don't know.

REDMAN: --other sports on campus were--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think so.

DON CAMPBELL: I think so.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think so, yeah. I used to be in the rooting section and hold up the cards.

REDMAN: So card stocks were a big activity.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

REDMAN: And that was a popular activity for students to go to games in those days?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Sure. Yeah.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, the rooting section was big.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes. And they'd have parties afterwards--different fraternities and sororities.

REDMAN: I'm interested in this topic, in part, because I'm a season ticket holder myself, so--

DON CAMPBELL: Good. Good

REDMAN: I have to confess.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Good for you.

REDMAN: But I'm interested in what that might've been like in that era. Being 00:38:00from San Francisco, maybe you went over to visit your parents on occasion. But did students go over to San Francisco? Or were their lives pretty much in Berkeley?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think more in Berkeley there were activities--parties and so forth. Yes.

REDMAN: On this side of the bay?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right. Yes, you'd go occasionally to San Francisco for evenings but--

REDMAN: We've talked a bit about fraternities and sororities. Could you talk a little bit about housing for students? I imagine a lot of students lived in fraternities and sororities. There were fewer dorms.

LUCY CAMPBELL: That's right

REDMAN: The big huge dorms that you see now around campus.

LUCY CAMPBELL: They weren't there.

REDMAN: A lot of people lived at home; did you have the impression, some of the 00:39:00other students?

LUCY CAMPBELL: East Bay people did.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah. I lived at home most all the time. I did live in one fraternity, but it was fair to say that every facility was always used.

REDMAN: Can we talk a little bit about, in those days, campus activity? I understand that in the thirties there would've been, for instance, the Young Communist League might've been protesting on campus. Or there might have been one group or another group. But prior to the Free Speech Movement, they would've been off campus. Political speech would've been off campus at the corner of Bancroft and Telegraph maybe?

DON CAMPBELL: Telegraph, yeah.

REDMAN: Were students gathering there at any particular times, or you don't really recall things like that?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I didn't think so. I think because during the war, there was such an effort about the war, that that didn't seem to be prevalent or obvious.

REDMAN: So much of the activity must have gone into things like--you'd mentioned 00:40:00the Red Cross, volunteering, and--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. Certainly, within the sororities and I'm sure others too, they made efforts to do something to help in some way.

REDMAN: So then Don, could we talk about eventually, finally--ultimately enlisting in the military full-time and going into the Army, what that experience was like? Did you go to basic training?

DON CAMPBELL: Yes. I was in my senior year, and I was called and said, "This is it." I went down to Camp Roberts for basic training. Then I came back for a period of about three months to Cal. As there was no opening--I had qualified 00:41:00for Officers Candidate School at Fort Benning, Georgia. But there was no opening. So I was told to enroll, which I did do.

LUCY CAMPBELL: ASTP.

REDMAN: ASTP. Can you define that for me?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Associate--

DON CAMPBELL: Associated Students--

REDMAN: Training program?

LUCY CAMPBELL: That's it.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah.

REDMAN: There you go, all right.

LUCY CAMPBELL: You got it.

REDMAN: So you became, essentially, a uniformed student.

DON CAMPBELL: I was. But I did not even finish my first semester. The opening came and we all--those who could left.

REDMAN: What did you think of the experience of going to basic training and then being in Fort Benning? Were you meeting guys from around the country?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, sure. And all good guys! You bet.

REDMAN: So you liked the young men that you were meeting and the young men that 00:42:00you were serving with.

DON CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes, I did.

REDMAN: I understand for a lot of men of your generation it would've been their first time meeting someone, say, from Minnesota or Indiana or New York. Growing up you must've known primarily California kids?

DON CAMPBELL: That's right.

REDMAN: So was it different, in terms of--were you meeting people who had different backgrounds and experiences?

DON CAMPBELL: Things were different, yes, but interesting. Yeah, and I liked it.

REDMAN: I'm going to take one more look at the tape here. I'm sorry, I know I keep doing this but I want to make sure we get all--okay, I have enough time for one more sort of big question. Lucy, I'd like to ask about being on campus at Cal as a young woman. How did the young men and women interact in terms of students? Do you think that there was respect there? Were there incidences of 00:43:00sexism that you encountered?

LUCY CAMPBELL: No, I didn't think so. I thought there was respect. They'd gather in front of Wheeler and try to get together. [Don laughs] Even the ones in the uniforms, they were out there. [laughs] I didn't take any classes with any military, but they were around.

REDMAN: So that's something that I suspect is different from a lot of campuses, is that you had the really active military presence. So young men would've been still a part of university life during the war?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right, right.

DON CAMPBELL: And were wearing uniforms.

REDMAN: And were wearing uniforms, which a lot of young women probably didn't find all that bad. They probably looked good.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. They did. [laughs]

DON CAMPBELL: Alive. [laughs]

REDMAN: The Bay Area changed quite a bit. During the war itself, there was a lot 00:44:00of people coming to the Bay Area for work. But then also there were a lot of servicemen, not on campus, but in places like Oakland Army Base or stationed all around the bay. Can you talk a little bit about the influx of people coming to the Bay Area at that time? So many people were coming to Richmond.

LUCY CAMPBELL: That's right. That's right. Richmond.

DON CAMPBELL: That's what I was going to say. They didn't come as a member of the service force, but they came to do jobs.

LUCY CAMPBELL: To work in the shipyards.

DON CAMPBELL: And the shipyards was one of the biggest--

LUCY CAMPBELL: In Richmond.

REDMAN: So that was this massive influx of people. Did you guys know much about that, as students? Were people talking about that, or did that seem--it's virtually right down the road.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I know.

REDMAN: But it must've felt like a world away, in some sense.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think so. I think so. The only time I was aware of it--when I worked at Permanente because there were shipyard workers who were there, in the hospital.

REDMAN: Can you talk, just for a moment, about how you were ushered into that 00:45:00particular hospital? Were there--

LUCY CAMPBELL: I don't know if we had--I don't know.

REDMAN: If there were an option, or if that was just an assignment?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think it was a choice. They gave us a choice. I used to take the trolley down--I guess it was either College or Telegraph down to Permanente. Kaiser Permanente.

REDMAN: But that must've been a brand new facility at that time.

LUCY CAMPBELL: It was. It was. Of course, nothing to the size it is today but--

REDMAN: Yet at the same time, it was rolling pretty steadily with all of the shipyard workers.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: I understand a huge percentage of them signed up for healthcare.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: And many of them, I suspect, had never been offered a healthcare plan before and now they've got access to higher wages and pretty decent healthcare.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: You must've seen a very interesting clientele, or a very interesting group of people, going to that hospital I suspect.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right. Well, it was different, but I'm happy I did it, really.

REDMAN: Can you talk a little bit about how people were different from you? The people that you had maybe known growing up or----

LUCY CAMPBELL: They were a little rougher and tougher. And I remember that we had to wear blue uniforms and they'd say, "Come here, little bluebird." [they laugh]

REDMAN: So there might've been some loose talk.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah, a little bit. By and large if you're sick--all the same.

REDMAN: So people were mostly there to get help?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Right--right.

REDMAN: I've heard stories about, in particular, the influx of African-American men that went to the shipyards. There was a story that one young woman told me, 00:47:00or one woman who was then a young woman working in the hiring hall during the war, who told a story of so many young African-American men signing up with "bad blood." They had syphilis. There was a high incidence of syphilis, with people coming from the South.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I didn't know anything about that.

REDMAN: So things like various ailments or things like that, that was not necessarily--

LUCY CAMPBELL: No.

REDMAN: --a part of the awareness at the--

LUCY CAMPBELL: I wasn't aware of it.

REDMAN: So it was mostly, I imagine as a nurse, dealing with run-of-the-mill--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Run-of-the-mill.

REDMAN: People who have colds or--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Exactly.

REDMAN: --stomach flu or things like that.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah, or whatever. [laughs] But no, I wasn't aware of that at all.

REDMAN: How about some of the stories that you hear about shipyard works who, now with a little bit of money in their pocket, go to places like El Cerrito and go have a good time? Maybe that was one of the reasons that they were showing up 00:48:00at--or feeling a little under the weather. But was there an active social life for the shipyard workers? Did you get that impression?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I have no idea. Do you?

DON CAMPBELL: No. I just do know this friend of mine worked at this gas station, and he said that he was filling the gas for a good number of younger men who worked in the shipyards. And they all had pretty sporty cars and they all had money. And they were just of a different group, therefore.

REDMAN: Doing pretty well at that time.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah.

REDMAN: Especially coming out of the Depression.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yeah.

REDMAN: So I'd like, if it's all right, to pause this tape and put in a new tape.

Begin Audiofile 2 02-08-2012.mp3

REDMAN: My name is Sam Redman, and today is February 8, 2012. I'm in Berkeley, California today, with Don and Lucy Campbell, and this is our second tape together today. I'd like to hear about how the two of you met.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Actually, the first time we met at a cocktail party in San Francisco, when he was in the service and a friend of both of ours was in the service. But I hadn't met Don yet. He was the older brother of a sorority 00:50:00sister. But he was gone by the time I came to Cal. So any rate, we met and then he went off again because he was still in the service. Then he asked someone in the sorority to arrange a date for me to go out with him. We went to see Dante the Magician. So that was the big date. But then he went off again and then he came back to Cal in my last semester, in '47, to finish up. Then after that we started going out.

REDMAN: I'd love to hear more about that because it starts getting going at the end of the war. Let's talk for just a moment about the effects of rationing on campus. Can you tell me a little bit about what it must've been like for a young person?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well living in a sorority they provided the food. So it was not 00:51:00obvious to me that there was rationing. When I lived home, we had ration books--ration for gas and we had coupons. We had coupons for gas and coupons for food, too.

REDMAN: Could you describe for someone who never had a ration book how that would work?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, it was a book. You had stamps, right?

DON CAMPBELL: A little booklet, yeah--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Coupons, coupons.

DON CAMPBELL: --with perforation. You could tear them, like a stamp.

REDMAN: Now here's my big question though--is that on the books and on the stamps, instead of pictures, like you'd expect--like a thing of gasoline or a tire or something--there were patriotic pictures. So instead of a steak chop or 00:52:00something like that, there's a tank with an American flag, or a plane or something like that. So how did they know? How would you know, "Oh, this is my ration for tires or gas or food or--"

DON CAMPBELL: Believe me, when it was for your food or your gas, you knew.

REDMAN: And I understand you could go, say to a butcher, and you'd present them with your stamp and they let you buy--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. Right.

DON CAMPBELL: That's right. That's right.

REDMAN: But then as a college student, the sorority might take of it all--

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think they took care of that. We didn't personally. We were not personally involved.

REDMAN: Was there such a thing as a sorority mother or something like that?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. Yes.

REDMAN: What's a sorority mother do?

DON CAMPBELL: She tears her hair out. [they laugh]

LUCY CAMPBELL: We had lockout time. We had to be home--be back in the sorority by a certain hour.

REDMAN: Do you recall what time that must have been?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, weekdays, maybe it was as late as midnight--eleven, twelve.

DON CAMPBELL: Eleven.

REDMAN: Eleven.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Okay, eleven. But weekends, we had a little longer. But you couldn't get back into the house after lockout. You're in big trouble then.

REDMAN: So she was responsible for making sure you met curfew?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, right.

REDMAN: And then doing things like running the rationing.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I'm sure she did.

REDMAN: Food, things like that.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Uh huh

Sam

REDMAN: And that must've been a pretty tough job, in retrospect.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I guess in retrospect, it was.

REDMAN: At the time, did you sort of roll your eyes like a teenager might have? What was your attitude towards those sort of rules?

LUCY CAMPBELL: It didn't bother me because I always had rules. I grew up with rules.

REDMAN: Similarly Don with you?

DON CAMPBELL: Sure. I did live at home, except for one year where I did go to my fraternity to live in.

LUCY CAMPBELL: But you didn't have rules in the fraternity, did you?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, no. Not as to time or anything, no.

REDMAN: How about in terms of then going into the service? Was that a big adjustment for you, in terms of regulation and timing and keeping your shoes spit-shine clean or things like that? Or were you pretty used to those sorts of things growing up?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh a bit maybe. But really what it was is when I got called and we--from Cal we went down to Camp Roberts. It was a group of Cal ROTC students. So we were all kind of in the same class to go through. And we knew each other 00:55:00or knew of each other and recognized each other. It gave a certain--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Esprit?

DON CAMPBELL: Esprit, stability, and made things a little easier too because you knew some common-ground guys.

REDMAN: Could you talk a little bit about health inspections for the US Army in those days? Was that a unique experience of going to the--every GI standing in a row and getting their health inspection one after another?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, probably each one was a bit different, but of no great consequence.

REDMAN: So that didn't really faze you?

DON CAMPBELL: No.

LUCY CAMPBELL: But the Army taught him to be very neat. His father had taught him, "A place for everything and everything in its place," and I guess the Army 00:56:00taught him too. So his drawers were always--underwear, socks.

REDMAN: Discipline.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Discipline.

REDMAN: Before I get into your being discharged, and then I'd like to ask about the GI Bill. But before that, Lucy, I'd like to ask a question that maybe you'll be able to speak to that Don may have been away for, for his training. In 1944, there was a massive explosion at a place called Port Chicago.

DON CAMPBELL: Chicago, yeah.

REDMAN: Do you have any recollection of that?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, I have a recollection. But I wasn't personally involved. I 00:57:00didn't know anyone involved in it, but I certainly knew about it.

REDMAN: I understand that the explosion was so large that it would've broken some glass in Berkeley, and shook houses and things like that.

LUCY CAMPBELL: No. That, I don't have a-- after all this is earthquake country.

REDMAN: So something like that may not have fazed you. You might've just thought, "This is a little rumble."

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: Then did you hear about it later, I assume?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, and I've read about it.

REDMAN: And subsequently you've read more about it.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: It involved predominantly black sailors in the Navy. It was this massive explosion. There was a tremendous loss of life, and now it's a national historic site there. But many of these details, I understand, only came out gradually to the general public.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think that's true.

DON CAMPBELL: That's right, yeah.

REDMAN: How about you, Don? Would you have been away at this time? Would you 00:58:00already have been--?

DON CAMPBELL: Yes. I was not here. I read about it.

Redman: You did read about it. I want to ask, speaking of reading while in the Army--Stars and Stripes. Does that ring a bell as a--?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, the paper.

REDMAN: A newspaper. If someone's never read Stars and Stripes, what can you tell them about it?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, it's very good. It covers a lot of things and does very well.

REDMAN: So it was a newspaper for servicemen.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah.

REDMAN: And I understand it was written by servicemen.

DON CAMPBELL: Yes, it was.

REDMAN: And sometimes they'd have some leeway to make jokes.

DON CAMPBELL: And they did. [laughs]

REDMAN: Okay, yeah.

LUCY CAMPBELL: How about your cartoons, your Army cartoons?

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah. I have a cartoon book hidden up there, called Humphrey.

REDMAN: Okay. Humphrey. And Humphrey's a GI.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Have you ever heard of him?

REDMAN: Yeah. So he goes through all these different sort of experiences, where maybe he's sitting in a foxhole and it's raining.

LUCY CAMPBELL: It's funny.

DON CAMPBELL: That's the guy. That's the guy.

LUCY CAMPBELL: It's really funny.

REDMAN: So these were sorts of things that people could identify with in the service-- other young men presumably.

DON CAMPBELL: They would get the most out of it.

REDMAN: So eventually, the war was coming to an end. I'd like to ask about when the Germans surrendered, V-E Day, but before the war had officially ended. Do you guys recall that, when Germany finally surrendered?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I recall it because they had a big celebration on Market Street, and my brother-in-law was a Navy Air Corps. So I went down to Market Street with him, and they had this--

REDMAN: A huge celebration.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes! Yes.

REDMAN: Tell me a little bit about what that was like.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, everybody was so excited. It was just--

REDMAN: Now I understand that there was a saying among servicemen who were 01:00:00overseas, even after the Germans surrendered, saying, "Golden Gate by '48." That people still thought that the war with Japan was going to continue on, until the dropping of the atomic bombs. Did you sort of have that feeling, that the war was going to continue on almost forever? Or did it seem like things were wrapping up?

DON CAMPBELL: Things were on the move, yes. But as to how long it would be, nobody even guessed.

LUCY CAMPBELL: But tell him about how you stayed over a year in the service.

DON CAMPBELL: Well, yes. I was in Germany when the peace came for Germany. Then they had this mass of humanity over there, and to get them home, they had no such facilities to do it. And so the troop ships that they did have, they 01:01:00continually made available to bring fellows back. But they did it according to the number of points that they had earned, which was the number of months or years they'd been in the service, any decorations and such things which earned points. Those with the most points went home first, and worked on down. I still had a number of points necessary to go home, and this friend of mine called and asked if I wanted to change and be in his Adjutant General's Department and what it was--

LUCY CAMPBELL: From the infantry.

DON CAMPBELL: And what it was was to go around all the leave centers that the Army used and see that things were being done fairly, and correctly, and in order. I said, "That's a good deal," because I wasn't going to go home for a year anyway.

REDMAN: I'd love to hear, just for a moment, out of purely personal interest--I know after the war ended in Europe my grandfather, on my father's side, was in one of those leave centers.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, really?

REDMAN: There are pictures of him golfing at the end of the war, almost like this is surreal. [Lucy laughs]

DON CAMPBELL: He was on duty. [They laugh]

REDMAN: Yeah, exactly. Can you tell me what a leave center might've been like? This is following the war--there is still a lot of American servicemen in Europe, and the Marshall Plan had yet to be enacted. I imagine it was still sort of not even a figment of George Marshall's imagination yet, but there's still a lot of American servicemen--although they've just be through this whole big war. And so these leave centers were quite important, I imagine.

DON CAMPBELL: Well, they were. But what it was, they were all during the last--after the Battle of the Bulge and things started going well--then they 01:03:00would give men a week or two weeks leave and they could go off, staying in Europe and all, and they had different leave centers at key places like down in Bavaria and on the French Riviera--all good places.

LUCY CAMPBELL: [chuckles] With a golf course.

DON CAMPBELL: One of those certainly had a golf course, that's right. And that's where the fellow would go and spend that time. And they had people assigned to be in charge and run all that. It took a lot of time and a lot of manpower.

REDMAN: I can imagine that it would take a lot of coordination, in some sense, punching these people off the clock and then making sure that these various responsibilities kept going while also cycling these men through these leave centers to make sure everybody gets a break.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah.

REDMAN: So that must've been a pretty big effort.

DON CAMPBELL: I'm sure it was. Yeah.

REDMAN: But your primary responsibility at that time was just to go around and check and make sure everything--

DON CAMPBELL: See that they were being run fairly.

REDMAN: Now that must've been interesting, in the context of, so much of the destruction that had happened in Europe during the course of the war. Did you get a glimpse of some of that?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, sure. When I was on duty, I did.

REDMAN: Tell me about what your story was, if you wouldn't mind, for your time in the infantry being on duty in Europe. Prior to the leave centers, what was that experience like?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, I was infantry. We were in--

LUCY CAMPBELL: You went over as a replacement officer.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah, I went over as a replacement officer. But I was in a unit in the blink of an eye, and I was in Patton's Third Army. And we had a lot of 01:05:00activity and all. But then we had crossed the Rhine River and were on into Germany, when the Russians gave up, and we stood still as we were. That was to be the lines that were to be used for whatever--armistice. We had to stay there for--oh gracious--a couple months. Then they started bringing the troops back across the Rhine, into France, so they would go home.

REDMAN: I get the sense that Patton was keenly aware of where the Russians would sort of end up, in this endgame of the war, of sort of where demarcation line would be marking the Russian sphere of influence versus the British and American sphere.

DON CAMPBELL: That is correct.

REDMAN: Was that something that you guys were also thinking about? Or did you guys--?

DON CAMPBELL: I'm too far down the actual--[they laugh] But rather, it was something that you realized, and knew, that it was under thought and it was being watched. And you admired the fact that they were thinking that far ahead and doing what they could.

REDMAN: So then soldiers were no dummies. They knew what was going on, even if it's sort of above your pay grade, the ultimate decision of--

DON CAMPBELL: That's right. Yeah, a lot of hearsay.

REDMAN: Let's see where I want to go with this. As we wrap up here I'd like to ask about coming back, then, to school. Getting your discharge papers and coming back you ultimately get enough points, I suspect, to come back to California, or 01:07:00to come back to stateside.

DON CAMPBELL: To get out of the service, yeah.

REDMAN: You were eager to be done by that point?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, I was ready to get out sure.

LUCY CAMPBELL: But you stayed in the-- what was it--the reserves.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, well that's different though. This is active.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah. On the active, I did resign and did come back to California. I came back during the month of July, which was perfect, so that the fall semester of--

LUCY CAMPBELL: I would say it was--

DON CAMPBELL: '46.

REDMAN: Can you both talk about hearing word about the dropping of the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did that surprise you, when those things happened?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: What were your first thoughts when you heard about it?

DON CAMPBELL: Amazed.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Shock.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah.

LUCY CAMPBELL: We went. We visited both places--Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

REDMAN: So at the time, that must have been a surprising bit of news, and confusing that there was this new bomb. But you knew it was capable of wiping out a city? I suspect right away?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, I think it was pretty evident after it occurred. But it was a shock.

REDMAN: I understand it took several weeks for photographs to appear in American media sources. So at first, maybe there would be these descriptions of what had happened, but--

DON CAMPBELL: Yes, that's correct.

REDMAN: But it wasn't for some time, that there was sort of the visual accompaniment of that. I suspect for a soldier, it may have even taken longer to really understand the enormity of what had happened.

DON CAMPBELL: That's really what it was, yeah.

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think it's taken a long time because so much happened afterwards to realize what devastation did occur in the civilian population.

REDMAN: So at the time, I suspect you were relieved to have your sweetheart come home?

LUCY CAMPBELL: [chuckles] He wasn't my sweetheart. Not yet. [Laughs]

DON CAMPBELL: I didn't move that quickly. [They laugh]

REDMAN: So maybe not having that on your mind but you were probably, both for very distinct reasons, happy that the war was over.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, sure, yeah.

DON CAMPBELL: Yes. Yeah.

REDMAN: So can you talk for a moment about the GI Bill? Did you utilize your GI Bill?

DON CAMPBELL: I did. I came back for my last semester at Cal.

Redman: And used the GI Bill for your last semester.

DON CAMPBELL: I paid $27.50 for my last semester. [They laugh]

LUCY CAMPBELL: Doesn't that kill you?

REDMAN: Yeah, that's amazing--

DON CAMPBELL: I thought I'd rub your sore.

REDMAN: Right--[They laugh]--but what a recollection, too, to be able to recall exactly how much. That's amazing, amazing. So I suspect that a lot of young men 01:10:00would've been in a similar situation.

DON CAMPBELL: Oh, sure.

Redman: That they would've come back and use their GI Bill to finish up at Cal. And I know there's the War Alumni Association, of classes that were interrupted by the course of the war--a very similar story to your own. Were there other young men who were in your situation who had gone over and fought--? Or even, I imagine, the experience of being in basic training--being in ROTC. You would have a different sort of attitude, I suspect, to your classroom than maybe an eighteen-year-old freshman kid who hadn't gone through those experiences.

DON CAMPBELL: Well, years will do that anyway. But what was most noticeable to me was the interest as to after the war, and you came back, that first semester in the fall. You would ask about seeing certain guys and, "Oh, he had gotten married and they had an apartment nearby." And the number of young fellows that 01:11:00had married--didn't you think so?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, it's true. But also, I think, when the young men came back they were much more serious about--they wanted to be finished with college. So they--

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah, one semester--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Especially if they were married.

REDMAN: Finish up.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Finish up. Yeah, get on your life.

REDMAN: Now on the other side of the coin, young women, many of them had started working during World War II, the so-called Rosie the Riveters. Who then were encouraged, or discouraged, depending on how you state it--by corporations, by the government, all sorts of varies parties to start leaving their jobs--make room for the young servicemen who were coming back. For many of them, they say, "We wanted to go home and have babies," in that era. What's your thought on 01:12:00young women emerging after the Second World War? I imagine many people wanted normalcy so bad--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, yes.

REDMAN: But on the other hand, women had made some pretty gains.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Some inroads, yes. It's true, and I think that's great that they did. But I personally wasn't involved in that because I didn't work in the shipyard or anything like that. But I think it's great that women did kind of become more involved. It's a good thing.

REDMAN: So it was clear that they were making pretty huge gains--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Definitely. Yes. Yes.

REDMAN: During the course of the war.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: To what extent--can you connect that for me--for a woman of your generation to later feminism movements--do you think that there's a disconnect there between the Rosie the Riveter generation and then what we think of as 01:13:00feminist movements of the fifties and sixties? Or do you think that those two things are really pretty firmly connected?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think they're connected. I think they're connected because I don't think women did those things before.

REDMAN: So that really opened up a new avenue.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, definitely.

REDMAN: I'd like to hear, then, what life was like after graduation. Tell me a little bit about what happened to the two of you, as a young couple then, in the Bay Area in the mid-1940s--after the war is over, and after you leave and get married.

LUCY CAMPBELL: We were married in '49.

REDMAN: '49, okay. And where were you married, if I might ask?

LUCY CAMPBELL: We were married in San Francisco.

REDMAN: And then you guys had children?

LUCY CAMPBELL: We have six.

REDMAN: And did you reside in San Francisco for a little while?

LUCY CAMPBELL: No, we were East Bay the whole time.

DON CAMPBELL: We were here.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Berkeley. Berkeley.

DON CAMPBELL: Yeah, and then we built this house.

LUCY CAMPBELL: We built this house, and as we had more children we added on.

REDMAN: Do you recall when this house came to be?

DON CAMPBELL: '53.

REDMAN: '53. That's amazing. That's amazing. Tell me a little bit about career, post--what sort of career did you have in Berkeley in the fifties, sixties, seventies? What shaped your work life?

DON CAMPBELL: Oh. I became an insurance broker with a firm, and then later became a partner. A Berkeley firm, but we had branch offices.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Mason-McDuffie?

REDMAN: And Lucy how about you?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well I worked for an export-import company before I got married. Then after I was married--I didn't work--I had children and--

REDMAN: Six children! That's a big family.

LUCY CAMPBELL: And I did a lot of volunteer work and that kind of thing.

REDMAN: And just out of curiosity, do many of your kids now live in California, the Bay Area, all over the country?

LUCY CAMPBELL: They really live all in California, except one lives in Colorado. But he still maintains an apartment here. He's with Hewlett-Packard.

REDMAN: So then the last group of questions I'd like to ask are--life as alumni of the University of California. I'd like to ask, in particular, how both of you became interested in the Bancroft Library as an institution on campus.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well I had used the Bancroft Library when I was at the University. But then I sort of became aware of it again after my mother died and someone made a donation to the Bancroft Library in her name. So then we became members, eventually, and our membership has continued. And then I did serve on 01:16:00the "Friends of the Bancroft" for a short while.

REDMAN: Did you enjoy some of the things that you learned?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh, yes, very much! Very much! In fact, we just went to a--well it was the library generally, they had a program about a week ago, a couple weeks ago.

REDMAN: So it's still an active part of your life?

LUCY CAMPBELL: I think so, yes.

DON CAMPBELL: Very interesting subjects--well taken care of.

LUCY CAMPBELL: And wonderful exhibits. Yes, I think it's a wonderful place.

REDMAN: So you two were both particularly excited to see the new building, the new space?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Oh yes--definitely.

REDMAN: A massive transition for the library.

DON CAMPBELL: Unbelievable, yeah.

REDMAN: What I'd like to wrap up with is--usually I go back and I say we've talked about a lot of different topics, which is true. We went all the way from the Great Depression, through the Second World War, through life in the Army. We 01:17:00talked about the bridges, and World's Fairs, and meeting and patriotism on campus. I'd like to ask, if you guys could reflect on, each of you, the place of the war in your life. In the course of your whole life story--the war seems to be such a big turning point for so many people. Can you talk about, in just your own case, what the war means for you in your life story? Lucy, maybe we could start with you.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well I think it was a very vital, important time in our lives and certainly made us think about more than our just little world. And I think it was the exposure and hearing about-- and hearing--immediately because the young men were off serving and they'd come back with stories and pictures. In my own family, I had several serving in the war. So you became much more aware of it-- 01:18:00whereas before--life went along happily and blissfully.

REDMAN: It was a--

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes. Right.

REDMAN: --big wakeup call, in some sense, internationally and--?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Yes, yes--definitely.

REDMAN: Don, how about you?

DON CAMPBELL: Well, also it was a thing that I would hear about it and read about it. Then more and more it kept building up, and more and more names that I knew kept appearing. And the next minute, not only you were, but you wanted to be involved. And with being involved, then you want to do something. You want to succeed. You want to move up, which is what I sought to do.

REDMAN: How do you two feel about the term, the Greatest Generation?

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, I think [chuckles] there are many other great generations. That might be a bit exaggerated. That's a little bit-- don't you think?

DON CAMPBELL: Yes.

REDMAN: You think it's a nice sentiment--

LUCY CAMPBELL: It's nice, but--

REDMAN: Well, with that I'd like to say thank you both so much for sitting down and talking with me.

LUCY CAMPBELL: Well, I think you've been great, really.

DON CAMPBELL: You really were, yeah.

[End of interview]