Mathilda Maes | Interview 1 | April 1, 2005

WASHBURN: Interview with Mrs. Matilda Maes, [spells Maes] in Oakland, California, on April 1st, 2005. The interviewer is--?

MARCELO: Marla Marcelo.

WASHBURN : How do you spell your last name?

MARCELO: [spells] Okay? Okay. Mrs. Maes, where were you born?

MAES: I was born in Texas.

MARCELO: And when did you move out to California?

MAES: When I was four months old.

MARCELO: Why did your family come out here?

MAES: My family was looking for better living, better way of life.

MARCELO: What did your parents do?

MAES: My father worked at the factory. Actually, dad worked at the telephone company. He was an expert at the telephone wires and electricity, things like that.

MARCELO: Here in California?

MAES: No, before he came to California. That was what he was doing over in 00:01:00Texas. Then he came to California, he had different jobs, I guess. Whatever was available in the way of construction.

MARCELO: What did your mom do?

MAES: She a stay-at-home mom. Moms didn't used to go out and work in those days.

MARCELO: Any brothers or sisters?

MAES: I had one brother, three sisters.

MARCELO: So you moved out to California all together?

MAES: Well, my younger sister was born in California, so.

MARCELO: So--

WASHBURN: Before you move on to California, tell us a little bit about life in--not life, you were too young when you came out to California, I guess, but how did your family end up in El Paso? Can you tell us a little but about that?

MAES: My parents came to the United States--with the conquistadors in 1717 before the Declaration of Independence, long--I can trace my ancestors from, they came from Spain. I guess they were always looking for a better way of life. Is that what you want to know?

MARCELO: So were your parents native of Texas?

MAES: Yes. My father and my mother were natives of Texas.

MARCELO: Do you know why they chose California, why they wanted to come out here?

MAES: I can't hear you.

MARCELO: Why did they choose California? Why did they want to move out here?

MAES: I don't know. But everybody at that time, I imagine, I see stories and I hear everybody was coming out West to the new frontier. That was quite a little while ago, you know.

MARCELO: And they settled in Modesto?

MAES: Mm-hm.

MARCELO: What was that like, growing up in Modesto?

MAES: Well, I was a child, so to me it was a happy times.

MARCELO: What did you do as a child?

MAES: Go to school. [laughs]

MARCELO: Did you graduate high school?

MAES: Yeah, Modesto High. I went to JC, yeah, my girlfriend and I took a couple of courses, night courses in welding so that we could--we were anxious to help in the war effort, see what we could do.

MARCELO: Back to when you were growing up in Modesto, what did you do for fun?

MAES: What did we do--? Oh, we'd dance.

MARCELO: Dances?

MAES: Mm-hmm. We didn't have much school activities. That's about it. In the summertime--I don't know if it still is but--all the kids worked at the dry yard. That was a lot of fun. To cut the fruit and get enough money for yourself 00:04:00for school clothes. That was a lot of fun to work there. And get paid for it. [laughs]

MARCELO: Wow.

MAES: You cut fruit. You cut the fruit in half, take the pit out, and it's all one--the biggest dry-yard they used to tell us. All the kids, we all went there to work. And have races as to who could do more.

WASHBURN: What did your pop end up doing in Modesto?

MAES: Well, he ended up working for the WPA, which was at that time, during the Depression, it was hard for men to find a job.

WASHBURN: Did he get laid off in El Paso?

MAES: Oh, no. That was way before. No, he didn't get laid off in El Paso because 00:05:00he was working in the telephone company, I forgot the name.

WASHBURN: So, what year are we talking about, what year did you move to Modesto?

MAES: 1918, because I was three months old. I hear it was the year of the big flu, the big epidemic.

WASHBURN: The Spanish flu. So what did he do before the Depression in Modesto?

MAES: Oh, in Modesto? We had a store. Yeah. We had like a small store. And then he worked, too, outside of the store. We all helped in the store and he worked--I don't know [laughs]--he went to work every day.

MARCELO: What happened to that store?

MAES: Well, the Depression came and everybody owed everybody, so you just left it. Rundown, it just deteriorated. Seeking better employment someplace else.

MARCELO: And what about your mom, did she stay at home as well?

MAES: She always stayed at home. She never worked outside. She worked at home but she never worked outside like mothers do nowadays.

MARCELO: About religion, do you--?

MAES: We were brought up very strict, let me tell you. We didn't do anything outside the Golden Rule. Yeah, very strict. My mother studied to be a nun. But that was before she met my father, of course. So that took care of that.

MARCELO: So you grew up Catholic?

MAES: Oh, yes.

WASHBURN: What would that mean, "very strict?"

MAES: That means that girls do not leave their home until they are married. When 00:07:00I met Carlos, he said, "Come on, let's go to Reno!" I said, "You'll have to ask my father." So he did.

MARCELO: When was this?

MAES: 1943, before we were married. We didn't have any free love, like what they did later on, and still do now. Times have changed so much, it surprises me.

MARCELO: So, when you were in Modesto, did you date anybody?

MAES: Did I what?

MARCELO: Date anybody?

MAES: In Modesto? No, we were just a bunch of kids. Just a bunch of kids playing. And then when the war came, all our young men were gone. How could we do it? Well, we donned their trousers, took off our skirts, put them pants on, and we haven't taken them off since. [laughter]

MARCELO: So you said you went to a JC for welding classes, is that correct?

MAES: Yes.

MARCELO: This is after Pearl Harbor and you just--?

MAES: No, no, during that time of Pearl Harbor, yeah.

WASHBURN: Follow us through the events. Tell us--we don't know what happened. So you graduated high school and--lead us through the story.

MAES: Okay. It was a big war, everybody was anxious to do their bit. There was no crime. Everybody was helping, to see what they could do. All our clothes, our shoes, our leather--we didn't have anymore leather, we didn't have elastic, we didn't have a lot of the conveniences that our kids take for granted now. So, my girlfriend and I said--actually we were closer together, a couple of the kids--said, "Well, JC is offering some night classes. Let's go learn how to weld." So we did that. And then after we graduated from there, the course, we decided to take the bus to come to Oakland. We heard there was a--hiring people. 00:09:00There was a big shipyard with a lot of work going on here for the defense department. So, we got up at about--oh, we had to leave Modesto at six o'clock in the morning and the bus would make mild deliveries and paper deliveries, we didn't get to Oakland until about two o'clock in the afternoon. We took a streetcar and we went to the end of the line and road it back and we saw--Mary said, "Oh, there's a big sign that says, 'Help Wanted.' Let's go apply there." We did and we were hired to--nobody was without a job. Everybody was just--back and forth, just like busy bees. And all the streets were just full of people, I was amazed. Some were coming and some were going. Because there was just three shifts, or if not more than that, for people to work on the shipyards. From there, we had our leaderman, and showed us what to do.

Finding a place to stay was a problem. Because people were renting out and 00:10:00staying in garages and lean-tos, anyplace they could. People were just swarming, they were coming from out of state. Oakland was filled with people. But everybody was good to everybody. There was no crime, no distrust. We were lucky to have this--my girlfriend had a friend that had a room and she took us in. So we stayed with her. Then they had the big dances, when the boys would--soldiers would come, or marines, or whatever those big dances at Sweet's ballroom or any of the big ballrooms. That was our enjoyment.

WASHBURN: You never heard of any--but why Oakland, not Richmond or San Francisco? Did your girlfriend have any friends here? Or was it just the 00:11:00proximity to Modesto? What happened?

MAES: Good question. She knew of this family that knew her family that lived here. So she contacted them and we took the bus and took a chance on finding a place to stay.

MARCELO: You said you got a job the first day you got here?

MAES: Yes, right away, the next day, report for work. At the shipyard.

MARCELO: What did you end up doing?

MAES: Welding big metal sheets. They don't tell you what they're for or what they're going to do with them. They just told us, "We don't talk about our work, we keep our--loose lips sink ships, we don't want our men to get into trouble." That's all we did, what we were told. A certain amount of rivets go in, they had 00:12:00to be placed perfect, which is flat--because we didn't want our boys to get hurt if the ship went down. Oh, those ships are so big, I was surprised. Seven stories!

MARCELO: Did you enjoy it?

MAES: In a way, we were happy to be able to contribute. Our work, we thought that--I don't know how many ships we contributed to making, but yes, I was happy to help.

WASHBURN: What did contributing mean at that point?

MAES: To be able to give. To give something, to do something for the war effort. We felt we were giving part of our time, part of our work. We didn't ask about retirement, we didn't ask how long it was going to last. We just wanted to get the ships out.

WASHBURN: Why was it important to help, though? For people who don't know the 00:13:00era, why was that important?

MAES: Because our men overseas weren't well-equipped. We didn't have that many--we were not prepared for the war. The United States was way behind in everything. Everything, I mean, things that they needed for the war. We happened to be able to help in the ships, to build ships. Different people had different factories, had different jobs to fill.

MARCELO: You were also part of a union, right?

MAES: Yeah. I think so, yeah. My paycheck said so. [laughter]

MARCELO: And did you ever socialize on the job at all?

MAES: Oh no! We didn't have time for that! We had to put in extra work and extra time. The only social time that we took off was to go to the big banderas {?}, 00:14:00because we liked to dance a lot.

MARCELO: Did you make any friends on the job? Anything like that?

MAES: Not too much. You kind of stayed to yourself.

WASHBURN: Where did your girlfriend work?

MAES: Same place.

WASHBURN: Same group? Same crew?

MAES: No. Yes, we both got on in the swing shift. Then I think later she had a different--I think we were separated later on. But we lived in the same place so we were pretty well up to date on what we were doing.

MARCELO: Were there a lot of women working with you as well?

MAES: A lot of what?

MARCELO: Women.

MAES: Yes. A lot of women. A lot of women, a lot of men, all those that didn't go to the service, for one reason or another, that were married or 4Fs or whatever. A lot of men resented to have women come and work, I want you to know 00:15:00that. Sometimes we had to be escorted to the bathroom because men weren't willing to share. "If they want to work like a man, let them go to the bathroom like a man." Things like that. It wasn't easy. It was a hardship for us, but we didn't pay attention.

MARCELO: Did you feel that resentment from men while you were working?

MAES: Sure, you feel it!

MARCELO: Were there any outward signs of outright--

MAES: No, no demonstrations, no nothing, you heard about it, but you didn't feel comfortable. We were escorted to the bathrooms and back, and always go two at a time. The men did resent the women in the lines--but there was no violence to hear about, no crimes. Everybody was there for one purpose. To see how fast. 00:16:00That's when Kaiser came in and promised the government that he could put up so many ships in a short amount of time.

WASHBURN: They didn't have a women's bathroom? They had just one bathroom?

MAES: Mm-mm. They weren't equipped, they weren't built--they didn't expect that--no, there was no before thought that they would have bathrooms for women.

WASHBURN: Your mom stayed home.

MAES: Why?

WASHBURN: You talked about your mom not working and staying home. Why didn't you just figure, "I'm going to stay at home too."? What changed between you and your mother?

MAES: Ambition. My brother went to the service. He was gone. We didn't get my brother back. And I don't know--we wanted to do more. We wanted to do something. 00:17:00If there hadn't been a war, I don't know what we would have done, Mary and I. But I'm sure we weren't going to just get married and stay home. We wanted to do a little bit more. Isn't that the way every generation is?

WASHBURN: What's that mean? Do a little bit more? Can you describe a little bit what that is?

MAES: Sure.

WASHBURN: What the difference in mentality was?

MAES: In my mother's time, when she was a young girl, they were prohibited from so many things because they were girls, they were women. Not to do this, not to do that. The men were free, and that's the way I was raised too. Men were free, let them do what they wanted. But girls were protected and kept home until they were sure there was a place where they were going to go. That's part of the 00:18:00religion too, being very strict. You do something out of line and you get on your knees and you pray three Hail Marys right now. [laughter]

WASHBURN: What changed then? What changed for you and your girlfriend?

MAES: I don't know how to answer that really. Ambition. Better life. Youth. Energy, more energy than we had to stay home. We wouldn't have stayed home, hm-mm.

MARCELO: So what did your parents feel about you leaving?

MAES: My dad was very good. He said, "Be careful, be careful." He didn't tell me to be careful of what, he just said to be careful. [laughter] He was good. He was all for better things, progress, I guess you could say. Mother was 00:19:00old-fashioned, that's the way she was.

WASHBURN: Where did your brother serve?

MAES: In the Air Force.

WASHBURN: Was he shot down?

MAES: No. He served in the Air Force and he came back home to be run over and killed by a drunk driver with no insurance. We were four girls and that was the only brother we had. We thought he was going to live forever. We always looked up to him, as it is accustomed in our life. The oldest one in the family is given every opportunity and everything. He also looked out for the younger ones, which, times change.

WASHBURN: Speaking about this with other people, a lot of people served--a lot of people went to work in the ship yards to earn money.

MAES: True.

WASHBURN: And principally to earn money, not principally to win the war. What was your interest in doing it, and was it important that your brother was serving in the military?

MAES: I think that did it.

WASHBURN: Can you explain that?

MAES: Well, I don't know what to tell you. We wanted to help win the war. We never asked, "How much are we getting paid? How long will the job--" Nothing about the job, what it required. It was just a person was required that had experience in that--but that's all. I imagine a lot of people came from way out of state, a lot of people were shipped from--brought over from Mississippi, Alabama, for better wages, good wages. I don't know if they were all--they should have been all interested in winning the war, which was our main concern. 00:21:00The better job we did the sooner our men would come home.

MARCELO: You said that they should have been concerned with that. Did you feel like they weren't?

MAES: No, there's different people have different ideas in life.

WASHBURN: Was that the first job you'd ever worked?

MAES: No, I worked in the dry yards, remember?

WASHBURN: Well tell us about--was it important that you had that experience before working in the shipyards?

MAES: I think so.

WASHBURN: Why is that?

MAES: Because you learn to work with other people. You learn to work side by side with, and get along with other people. I think that's very important in any job that you get. Being ready, ready on time, getting there. Filling your commitment. Not quitting in the middle. Things like that. No, I don't think we 00:22:00thought about security. I know we had enough money to pay rent and it sounded like a lot of money in those days. I've forgotten what it was, but it was more money than cutting fruit, but we had a lot of fun in that, too. I wish there was something real important that I could bring in here, like the feeling that goes in with the energy, overwhelming, to help our men overseas. You couldn't find a decent young man in the street anyplace. They were all gone. That's a very hard feeling for young girls. [laughter]

MARCELO: Can I ask what you did for fun then, after work?

MAES: Dance! We used to go dance all night. If there was one we'd go in the afternoon and another one at night, if there was one at the Jenny Lynn hall, well, we'd go there too. We'd show up for work then the next day, we never 00:23:00missed that. That was our main goal.

MARCELO: What kind of music did you listen to? What kind of dancing?

MAES: Ballroom dancing.

MARCELO: Ballroom.

MAES: And jitterbug, the good kind of dancing. [laughter]

WASHBURN: McCrackins ballroom was another?

MAES: I don't remember McCrackins. I remember Jenny Lynn and Sweet's ballroom. There's where the big bands came. Tommy Dorsey, Harry James, Paul Whiteman, a couple of other good ones.

MARCELO: You said decent men were hard to come by. Did you dance with men at these dances? Were there a lot of men--

MAES: Did we what?

MARCELO: Dance with men.

MAES: With men? Yes. We didn't dance with girls, no. [laughter]

MARCELO: You said that--

MAES: All the men were gone--well, see, they'd go and they'd come. Some would get a furlough. Either the sailors or marines or whatever unit. There was always somebody to dance with. There was always a lot of men that came in, that's when the big bands came in, when they got a furlough.

WASHBURN: Alameda was constantly had people coming in and out of there.

MAES: Yes. A lot of people.

WASHBURN: So when did you meet your husband then?

MAES: At one of the ballroom dances, I've forgotten which band was playing at the time.

WASHBURN: What year was that?

MAES: 1943. In July, fourth of July. We met the fourth of July, we were married in December of that year.

MARCELO: What did your husband do?

MAES: He worked at the shipyard at that time. Everybody helped at the war 00:25:00effort. He worked at the Alameda pipe riggers--something to do with pipes. [chuckles]

WASHBURN: Was he 4F himself?

MAES: Yes. He had a rock in his eye when he was a young boy and he had a problem with that eye. You couldn't tell that he didn't pass.

WASHBURN: The 4F is unfit for--. So where were you living at this time?

MAES: With my girlfriend's friend in Oakland. She had a room, she rented us a room and that's where we were. What do you mean, "Where were you staying?" We didn't stay, Carlos and I never stayed together, absolutely not. That was a no-no.

WASHBURN: I know that, but I'm saying, you're the daughter of strict Catholic 00:26:00parents and you're off living with friends and going out dancing.

MAES: They're Catholics too, and they had two young daughters. So, we had to account where we were going and what time we were coming home. If we were going someplace, you had your dinner--"Mary and I have a date," but you don't leave until you have your dinner and you go at a certain time and you come back at a certain time.

WASHBURN: They were watching over you.

MAES: Oh yes. I still have a lady friend that's in Livermore now, and she's about 100 years old now. I knew her then. She knew my parents. She had her family that I knew, like my girlfriend. She's no longer here to verify any that 00:27:00I've said.

MARCELO: How about after you got married? Where did you live?

MAES: In Alameda. We lived in Alameda. Carlos found us a place in Alameda. He looked and looked and they were hard to find. Very hard to find a place to live. Not unless we knew somebody that knew somebody that was going to go ahead of time. Yeah, lived in Alameda. Then later we moved into a project, government project in Alameda.

WASHBURN: Did your folks--did you speak Spanish in the home?

MAES: Yes, my mother. My father always spoke English to us.

WASHBURN: And Carlos, did he speak Spanish too?

MAES: Mm-hmm.

WASHBURN: So did you guys speak Spanish together or English?

MAES: Both. Mostly English. Because, I don't know why. [chuckles] There wasn't 00:28:00anybody else--I wanted to pass it on to my children but who do they practice with? They can understand it, you know, but they had no one to--and they took four years of it in school. Still, it's not the same. They can read it and write it, but not fluent, I guess you could say.

WASHBURN: Did you ever go to any of the{ tadeadas?} at Sweet's ballroom on Sunday?

MAES: Yes, that was the afternoons. Sweet's ballroom and the Jenny Lynn, that I can remember.

WASHBURN: Was it Spanish language music there at some of those ones?

MAES: No, it was mostly all jazz music, I guess you could say, that was in style 00:29:00then. Of course, people danced different. What do they call what they dance now?

WASHBURN: All different--

MAES: Body movements. [laughter]

WASHBURN: No, I interviewed people in Richmond that went out to the {tadeadas?} at Sweets and some went in zoot suits.

MAES: Oh yes, Carlos was a zoot suit--had a zoot suit. My parents said, "Oh!"

WASHBURN: You want to describe that? What was a zoot suit?

MAES: Oh, just a fashion to wear. A long coat. Matter of fact, I kept his coat. I gave all his clothes away but I kept a long coat, and baggy pants. Small ankles, a big long chain--I don't think he had anything on it, that I know of. Oh! And long hair.

Combed very nicely, Carlos had very beautiful--I'll show you a picture of when 00:30:00we first met and when one when he was gone.

WASHBURN: Why did your parents go "Oh!" when they knew--what was the reputation of the zoot suits?

MAES: I thought you knew. They didn't have a good reputation, of being troublemakers, troublemakers, yeah.

WASHBURN: Why was that? Why was their reputation not good?

MAES: I guess I don't know. They intrigued me. [laughter]

WASHBURN: They treated you well?

MAES: Oh yes. I guess they had a reputation of being trouble-makers. Or perhaps because they didn't go to the service, and you were looked down upon if you weren't in some branch of the service. That could be.

WASHBURN: They did get into scuffles with sailors pretty often.

MAES: Oh, yeah..

WASHBURN: Did Carlos ever get into scuffles with sailors?

MAES: No, he'd walk on the opposite side of the street that the sailors were. 00:31:00Avoid them. I guess.

WASHBURN: How long did he wear zoot suits for? Do you remember? When did they start going out of fashion?

MAES: After the war was over, they were gone. There was no more fun to wear. And as a family man it was different, a different era in out lives.

MARCELO: How did your parents feel about Carlos?

MAES: Fine, they felt fine. If I liked him, they liked him too. He was from a very old Catholic family in New Mexico. Neither here nor there, see when the people first came across the plains to the west, they could claim as much land as they wanted. So they had from the middle of the road to the top of a hill, 00:32:00beyond--you had to get on horseback, you couldn't walk that much. Then the Texans came in, people from Texas, {law school?} and all that, put up fences and claimed more so there was--which was not in the war effort, I might add. So we'll stick to the problem, okay? Stick to the story.

WASHBURN: Was it important for your folks that you married someone that--

MAES: That was the part I was going to get to. You see, the Texans and then people from New Mexico that came and boarded up, put fences and all that--well, I was born in Texas and he was from New Mexico. They even had a hanging tree. I was told, I never saw it.

Worked things out alright, and then the war came and everybody was friends. I 00:33:00think that's always--they say something good comes out of all the wars, that's one good thing that everybody was friendly to each other, nobody was violent or--no longer afraid to--or kept home because you weren't safe to go anyplace.

MARCELO: So you think your parents liked Carlos because he was from a Catholic family and it made it easier for you?

MAES: Yes. Catholic was number one in my family. Religious background.

MARCELO: So if he wasn't Catholic that would have been a problem, huh?

MAES: Hmm?

MARCELO: If he wasn't Catholic it would have been a problem?

MAES: Well, I don't know if--I don't know what would have happened.

WASHBURN: Can you walk us through one of your days at the shipyards? How did you get there? Just can you walk us through, can you go through the day? We don't 00:34:00know what it looks like, so, you woke up, what did you do?

MAES: We woke up, put on trousers. We had all men's trousers. They didn't have women's trousers in those--they were all men's trousers, and put on heavy shoes, and walk to the shipyards. Which, we weren't too far, I think we were on Jefferson Street, so that wasn't too far. The streets were wide and people were just filled--coming and going, coming and going, everybody minding their own business about where they were going and what they were going to do.

We'd get there and we were all assigned, if we didn't already have an assignment. If Mary had to go work over there and I had to go over here, we'd meet later and we'd walk home. We did a lot of walking! No more riding transportation. You had to walk. We used to walk all the way from there all the way down to the bus station, which is on Twenty-ninth, used to be there, from 00:35:00the shipyard, way down to Twenty-ninth and think nothing of it.

MARCELO: What about when you lived in Alameda? Did you continue working?

MAES: Well no. When we lived in Alameda that was after I was married. No, I didn't continue work. I think I did work for a little while at one of the stores, but it was not for long.

WASHBURN: What were some of the biggest challenges that you had while you were on the job in terms of physical challenges or mental challenges? What do you remember were the things that you thought, "This is difficult, I'm overcoming this."?

MAES: The work. Yes. I think doing the job right. Now this was a man's job that women hadn't done before and we wanted to do a good job of it. Putting the rivets where they belonged, getting so many, doing our job assigned, doing it 00:36:00right. They had these long hoses that you had to drag around that the leaderman had--doing the job right, understanding what you're doing, and doing the right job. That was the challenge. The challenge that we had never encountered because our life was different. But we accepted it and I think we came out fine. We probably could have flown if the occasion had arisen. That's how much energy we had to put into the effort of winning the war. And it wasn't only me. It was everybody that was coming and going, to and from to work, or right after work, busy busy busy. Like busy bees, back and forth.

MARCELO: How about the other people who worked there? Did you work with other 00:37:00people of different races?

MAES: Yeah. With no problem. And we didn't have any demonstrations or any things people brought up later on that--I couldn't understand what was the big problem, what were the issues about discrimination or unable to work with each other. That was totally wrong for me. My way of thinking. We had just one goal.

MARCELO: Did you make friends with any of the other people?

MAES: Not lasting friends, just passer-by. My girlfriend and I just kind of stuck to each other.

WASHBURN: What did you guys do with your money that you earned, you and your girlfriend?

MAES: I don't know, we spent it. We had a good time! [laughter] Well, you see, 00:38:00at that, we had, like I said, we had--shoes were confiscated, the leather, the elastic. A lot of the luxuries we no longer had. We weren't worried about that, it was no problem. But I notice it nowadays, kids have to have everything. Name brands and the best of everything, which they don't know how to do without.

WASHBURN: I want to interrupt you for one second. Rationing, right?

MAES: Yes.

WASHBURN: For someone who doesn't know about rationing, why don't you tell us what was going on there and why there was rationing.

MAES: Everything was confiscated by the government. We had coupons to buy our groceries, just so much meat was allowed, according to the size of your family. Right now I can't remember things coming to mind, other rations. Oh, sugar, we 00:39:00weren't allowed to buy too much sugar. Most of all I was--shoes, because if you liked to dance, and then if you don't have shoes, they have cardboard leather and they don't last too long in a dancehall. Clothing, sheets, bedding. Clothing, we were given a book with coupons, a family's only allowed so much. You had to turn in your coupon when you'd buy something, and if you don't have it, well, you don't buy anything. I guess that's what I mean. Rationing butter was also--you weren't allowed to have--just your quota whatever it was, the size of your family, you could have that much butter.

A lot of things. Cans of food. Gas for your car. The good things. [laughter]

WASHBURN: Butter and gas, huh? [laughter]

MAES: For the goodies, yes. Sugar for cakes and butter, and gas to get around in.

WASHBURN: Was it really noticeable? Rationing? Was it really noticeable?

MAES: Yes, yes. You could tell. People would say, "Well, I have extra this month, you take this one," and help each other out.

WASHBURN: Was it noticeable even in Modesto?

MAES: Oh, yes. Noticeable all over. All over the country. Not just here. Absolutely. I'm sure there's more that I'm not mentioning.

MARCELO: The money that you made was for yourself mainly? Did you ever help your parents out?

MAES: Oh no, we always helped our family out. Helped our family out. I can't 00:41:00exactly recall, but yes. It was just custom to help the family. Anyone--I had a younger sister and let's see, she was working at Western Union.

WASHBURN: Yes, go through your siblings. What did they do during the war? Your siblings?

MAES: Oh, if you had a job--like Mary, if you had a job that they wouldn't let you go, you had to stay at that job. The government needed your--like Kay did, my sister Kay was working at Western Union, they didn't give her permission to leave that job and come to the city, and she wanted so bad to be with us over here making big bucks and she was stuck on that. Things like that. A lot of people that were working, promised the guys when they left that they'd have 00:42:00their job when they came back. People were encouraged to work close to home where they wouldn't have to commute too far. Which everybody agreed to that because there was a ration on gasoline. Give each other rides. And you know, we didn't have the fast foods that you have now. It's hard to--I think we had hotdogs, but that's as far as we went. Five cents a hotdog.

MARCELO: Wow. [laughter]

MAES: Of course wages though. [phone rings] Excuse me a second, I'll tell them I'll call them back.

[interview isnterruption]

WASHBURN: Can we talk for a second about health care? Did the dry docks supply you with healthcare? What did you do--what did people do in case they were injured? Say they injured their back or something, what would they do?

MAES: I haven't the slightest idea. I was young and all I did was work and go dance! [laughter] No, let's see, that's when the unions started to come in and 00:43:00establish health. At that time you took care of yourself. Later on in life, that's when the unions started to come in. People organizing to get health insurance. But I don't think we had anything like that. If we did, I didn't know about it. My paycheck didn't suggest anything that was taken out for that. We each--everybody took care of themselves.

WASHBURN: Do you want me to get you a glass of water?

MAES: Yeah, I'm getting kind of hoarse.

[interview education]

WASHBURN: We'd like to know what women were doing for healthcare, particularly around the birth of their children and what they--how they were--if you don't mind me asking--

MAES: No, go ahead.

WASHBURN: How they were educated, one about sexual education--

MAES: Absolutely not, you didn't talk about it.

WASHBURN: Why not?

MAES: Why? That's what I wanted to know, "Why?" But we were never educated, talked about it. It was something you just didn't talk about.

WASHBURN: So how did you find out about these things?

MAES: Well, one way is in school, and friends that misinformed. [laughter] I guess. How did I find out?

WASHBURN: Because now women more regularly seek gynecologists and doctors for more--just personal health.

MAES: Do you know--I have to interrupt you.

WASHBURN: So what was going on in your--?

MAES: Nothing was going on. Did you know that women didn't have this prenatal health care? Say, eat certain things for your health--nothing for your health. If you ate too much, there was no program about that, nothing, you were on your 00:45:00own. When my two children were born, they were born cesarean, we paid for it, we paid our own. There was no insurance. You had to make enough money to save and take care of yourself. That's true. Not until the unions came in, the labor force that--and then there was a big fight about that because you were labeled a Communist if anybody on the job was caught so much as saying the word "union," out you go.

WASHBURN: Are you talking about at Moore's?

MAES: No, not at Moore's, later on.

WASHBURN: When is this later on, if you want to share?

MAES: Oh, okay. Later on. About the seventies? After the war, yes.

WASHBURN: In the fifties? During the McCarthy era?

MAES: Yes, right.

WASHBURN: The fifties.

MAES: Before that everybody took care of themselves.

WASHBURN: Was that a bad thing or a good thing?

MAES: Well, it's a bad thing because people weren't educated in their health. What caused it, what should I do? Nobody told me, "Don't gain too much weight, don't eat this, don't eat that. Exercise." Women weren't taught to exercise, especially if they were pregnant it was a bad thing. It's not a bad thing, it's good. But we were never taught. We were never told. There was nobody to--in school, it never--

MARCELO: So how did you learn about these things then?

MAES: I think I had most of my education through my children. I learned through 00:47:00them. And living, going through what I've been through. Everything I think I've learned and gone through has been truly through my children, in school, and in college. They still call me and I say, "Am I saying this right?" Or just advice on that.

WASHBURN: For instance, now, getting checked for breast cancer is a big thing, ovarian cancer is really big for women, but back then there was nothing like that?

MAES: No, you wouldn't even mention the word "pregnant." I asked my mother once, "No, this bride, her dress is shorter in the front than the back. How come?" My father told me, "Shut up! Don't talk like that." It was just the way everybody was at the time. I guess.

WASHBURN: How did you find out--?

MAES: I got pregnant! [laughter]

WASHBURN: Yes! If you don't know. Well, you knew that much. [laughter]

MAES: Well, let's see. Yes, school. Oh, we had in high school, talked about--your friends, what to expect, books. I know I read books. Books were about your best friend you could have. I read books, what to expect. I think that about will do it for me, the library.

WASHBURN: So you and your friends did this?

MAES: I wanted to do it myself, yes.

MARCELO: When did you have your first child? Was this during the war or after?

MAES: No, it was after the war, 1945. 1945 and '46.

WASHBURN: What was your child's name?

MAES: My child? Virginia.

WASHBURN: You had and about another twenty-five million women that year, huh? [laughter]

MAES: Yes. My daughter's on dialysis now. I tell you, this year is not my year.

WASHBURN: It doesn't sound like it. But that was happy times, having a child? Everybody was doing it.

MAES: Yes, the happiest times in my life, I can remember, when my children were little. Working with them, teaching them. Carlos used to tell me, "What are you telling them for? They're not old enough to understand." I said, "Yes they are. They can hear you." I'm telling you, your child can absorb whatever you're teaching very young, before it's born. But we already know that. We didn't know that when I was young.

MARCELO: Did you continue working also, after? When you were pregnant?

MAES: No, I had problems, I had a cesarean. That's why I think education is important.

WASHBURN: And that made it difficult for you to continue working afterwards?

MAES: Yes.

WASHBURN: Why don't you run us through what happened with the war ending and the dry docks--women being laid off. You want to run us through what occurred? When did you--people knew that the war was winding down. The Germans had surrendered, the Japanese--it was becoming more and more inevitable that it was going to happen.

MAES: Yes. It sounds like it's impossible but it's true--we didn't have the news 00:51:00on radio and television. We used to go to the movies on--whenever we went--to get the news. They'd have the newsreel on the movies. That's one way that we got our news. Of course everybody was joyous and I already knew what I was going to do after the war, so it had no problem. Some people went back home where they came from, because there were people out of state, a lot of people out of state. Others just stayed here. Everybody did different things. There was a jubilant--that the war was over. Happiness.

WASHBURN: What did you know you were going to be doing after the war?

MAES: I was going to be a stay at home mom and teach my children.

WASHBURN: Why is that?

MAES: Why?

WASHBURN: Why not continue working welding somewhere?

MAES: I don't know. There was no longer a drive for me to do that. I guess. I 00:52:00don't know.

MARCELO: Can I ask what your friend did?

MAES: Hmm?

WASHBURN: Mary, is that her name? What did your friend do?

MAES: She got married, she found someone here, too. We both did. She used to live in San Leandro. We still continued to be friends until about four years ago.

WASHBURN: She also raised a family?

MAES: Mm-hmm.

WASHBURN: I'm trying to get that question, and Marla is hinting at it, that, what did you do after the war meaning how did you go from, like you said, being different than your mother and having this energy to do these new things and then going right back to exactly what your mother was doing and raising a 00:53:00family? Why wasn't there maybe an idea that, "I'll keep working."?

MAES: What happened to the ambition and the struggle and all the energy?

WASHBURN: Yes.

MAES: Well, I never figured that I went back to where my mother went because she was a little further back in the dark ages. [laughter] I figured, to me, raising a family was the most important thing in my life. Teaching them. Now look at them all--five college kids in engineering--well, not all of them. I think that was the most important job. I think I graduated from one important putting all my energies to my family, to me that was most important. And Carlos was a provider. He stayed with General Motors for twenty--he retired from General Motors.

WASHBURN: Where was that--oh, I interrupted, keep going.

MAES: That's okay. First they were here in Oakland, and then they moved to Fremont. We were going to move to Fremont but the kids were in school here so it was a struggle between the kids and us so we chose to stay here and he commuted until he retired.

WASHBURN: It's a good job.

MAES: Well, the benefits are pretty good. It worked out well for me, and he saw to that.

WASHBURN: That's why you're talking about the union before--he's part of the United Auto Workers.

MAES: Mm-hmm. If we had a meeting--anyplace there was a meeting you had to be careful that you started anything, and he was all for it. You didn't want to be branded a Communist if you spoke out of line.

WASHBURN: Did he--was he active in the union?

MAES: Yes, he was active. He used to talk all the guys into supporting the union. Yes, he was active.

WASHBURN: Did you have meetings at your home too?

MAES: Shh! Don't tell. [laughter]

WASHBURN: It's okay to talk about this, it's okay to talk about it these days. [laughter]

MAES: Well, we weren't supposed to talk about it, we didn't know who came in to have the meetings there, because that was a hush-hush thing. Yes, we had meetings. That's the way it was. We progressed a lot. I can't believe it. Sometimes I'm talking about the olden days like horse and buggy, which is true.

WASHBURN: Those meetings, what was the intent of those meetings? Do you remember?

MAES: To get more people to join the union. And let the company show you that they could afford health benefits or whatever. I think it's health benefits, 00:56:00number one, that showed their books at their work that they could not afford it. To get a foothold someplace. Taking union dues out of your check. Most of the men were opposed to that. Oh, they're just speaking against it because it's explained to them, well, this is good for your future, that's where he came in.

WASHBURN: Why was he such a union man?

MAES: Because he wanted to provide for his family. We thought we'd have about six kids--it didn't turn out that way. I guess. In his family and my family, your families come first. It's a traditional thing. You're Catholic and you support your family or you're not a man or you're not a woman, to take care of 00:57:00your household. People come over, you're expected to put out a big feast for them. My father used--we'd have men come over to help my father do whatever it is he had to do outside. We put out a big table for them. Nobody went away hungry. Now, oh, if we don't have an appointment, if you don't have an appointment to come over you don't get fed--that I can't--I find it so hard to get used to. "Oh, I just ate."

WASHBURN: Can I ask more--we are interested more in the union, like why would you have been called a Communist? You can talk about this stuff freely because we're in a different era but then, I understand the Cold War was on, but why then was it considered Communist?

MAES: I don't know.

WASHBURN: People kind of look back and think people were paranoid.

MAES: Yes.

WASHBURN: Did you think people were paranoid as well?

MAES: Oh yes, you're afraid to talk about anything--discuss, you might say too much and get somebody else in trouble. I don't know why or when, but that's how it was.

WASHBURN: Do you think people were watching you guys?

MAES: Oh, we didn't think so, they were. Everybody was being watched, everybody would tell on somebody. It was just very difficult to go from complete honesty to all of a sudden like a big jerk there someplace in history.

MARCELO: Did you ever feel scared? Were you afraid at the time?

MAES: Mm-hmm, yes. There was a car over there--men with white hats all the time, down the road a little bit. I don't know what they were doing. We don't know what they were doing either. Nobody knows anything, just let them go.

WASHBURN: You think it was the FBI?

MAES: Mm-hmm.

WASHBURN: Yes, it was FBI?

MAES: Must have been.

MARCELO: So you just stayed home after the war? Did you ever get a job?

MAES: No, I worked. I worked where I could get off early--I worked where I could get off at 2:00 so I could be home when the kids got home.

WASHBURN: Discuss this. Continue with that answer. When did you go back to work and where was it?

MAES: Matter of fact, we lived not too far from here, our first home Carlos and I bought was on 54th [Street]. We should have stayed there. 54th . Yes, I went to work at the telephone company. I could get off early, get a shift and get off early, and I could be home when the kids got home. That was my mission in life, 01:00:00I guess you could say. [laughter] Where else did I work? I worked in the cookie factory, I could get off early there. I worked at General Electric, the swing shift. I worked there for a while. The place isn't even there anymore in West Oakland someplace. They make lamps.

WASHBURN: I'm going to change this tape, hold on.

WASHBURN: Your religious life once you moved to the Bay Area. Did you go to church in Oakland with your friend? What happened?

MAES: When we were young, going back before that, we were instructed never to go to other peoples' services. There was a church down the road a little bit. We used to sneak over there to go see what they were doing that was so awful they didn't want us to go in and see what they were doing. [laughter] Different way of worshipping--now what's wrong with that? Should have done that a long time 01:01:00ago. How did we continue here? Just one way to do it! Just follow your faith. Go to Catholic Church and follow the golden rule. We didn't get married for a while or until we found a better one. We got in it for life, and just finished a couple of months ago.

WASHBURN: Did you stay Catholic for life?

MAES: Oh yes!

WASHBURN: Some people ended up doing the Pentecostal or--

MAES: Some other one.

WASHBURN: Or even Baptist. Did you bring your kids up Catholic?

MAES: I tried to, yes. My son and my daughter are very devout Catholics. My grandchildren, there's another one, they got a little rebellious there. [laughter] We got into it the other day but I'm not going to talk about it.

WASHBURN: Okay. What did it mean to be a devout Catholic for you. Was it a weekly thing, going to mass?

MAES: Yes, if you can. It's not a rule, you just do it because you want to go. Like I said, follow the golden rule. You do things right. First of all, you don't go live with somebody till you find a better one. Carlos and I didn't know each other--that's just as well, because everybody has faults. He wasn't perfect and I guess I wasn't either. We overlooked each other, and we were both sincere and that's what happens, I guess. He had all the rights of the Catholic Church given to him on his death, and we felt very satisfied that we did the very best 01:03:00we could during his lifetime.

WASHBURN: We're trying to figure out through asking people, how important church was as compared with other parts of your life. How important was it--for some people more than others. Some people had--all of their friends were there in the church and it was all about that and for some people it was just part of--

MAES: A casual thing. To us it was a built-in thing. You're born with it and you die with it. I used to hear--Carlos had a lot of sisters and oh, it was a lot of fun to hear them--they were little old ladies, they were talking about a certain somebody and, "Oh poor thing, he's not even a Catholic!" [laughter] I thought that was--they would feel for anybody who would--it was just a built-in thing 01:04:00that we had, I guess you could call it, born to it. There wasn't as much freedom as we have now. Freedom in that, and freedom in everything else. Some things are good and some things are too extreme.

WASHBURN: Was it such a big part of your life--at what point do you remember mass being given in English versus Latin, and was that something which was--

MAES: I liked the Latin even though I couldn't understand it. But we were brought up with the Latin. Yup, there's been a lot of changes, and there's more changes, and I hear now that there will be more changes in the faith. To my way of thinking, they should have done that a long time [ago] merging with other religions--they belong in the same thing that--my daughter--we don't speak about dialysis in front of her.

WASHBURN: Okay.

MAES: Would you mind, get the door? [tape interruption]

WASHBURN: We want to talk about your education. You went to junior college, but up until--had anybody in your family gone to college? Was that anything that happened?

MAES: Yes, my brother.

WASHBURN: Where did he go?

MAES: Modesto. Modesto Junior College. He also was all for the library books, a learned person. Yes, Carlos's father was a principal at school. He was a professor. You'd never know that Carlos was a prodigal son. [laughter]

WASHBURN: So then who was the first--he didn't go a four year university?

MAES: No. Who? Carlos?

WASHBURN: Yes.

MAES: No.

WASHBURN: Who was the first then in your family?

MAES: Oh, my brother.

WASHBURN: Your brother.

MAES: My brother, yes. He was an engineer. We didn't have--we only had the one 01:06:00brother. Irene, no, Irene didn't go. I had an older sister.

WASHBURN: Where did he go to school?

MAES: Modesto.

WASHBURN: To the junior college?

MAES: Yes.

WASHBURN: What about your kids? You said many of them went to school.

MAES: Here in Oakland, Berkeley. Cal graduates. Cal. Their brother too, and the three grandkids.

WASHBURN: Do you have any more questions, Marla?

MARCELO: No.

WASHBURN: Did you guys--was there any assistance for buying your home? Do you want to go into that? What was the first home you bought? Was that the one in Alameda?

MAES: No, our first home we bought was here in Oakland. On Fifty-fourth and Grove. It used to be Grove. It's Martin Luther King now.

WASHBURN: What year was that?

MAES: 1942 I guess. Right after we were married. No, we were married in '43. Carl was born about '45 or '46.

WASHBURN: Did you guys have any assistance, coming out of the war? He didn't have any GI thing or anything because he didn't serve. Was there any kind of assistance?

MAES: No, we never had, no.

WASHBURN: So what did you guys do? It is a financial thing, but we're interested in how some people ended up--

MAES: Well, Carlos worked days and I worked nights. We both worked. We left each other notes on the table, to get enough money to do whatever we wanted to do. We paid our own insurance until Carlos got a job at--that's what was so important for Carlos, the health insurance.

WASHBURN: Where did you pay insurance--did you have Kaiser?

MAES: Well, we had a choice. General Motors gave them a choice, Kaiser or Blue 01:08:00Shield/Blue Cross. I think there was three different--two that I know of. The men have a choice to chose for them and their families. Which we didn't have in the beginning when we first were married. We didn't care. [laughter]

WASHBURN: Then how did you--there wasn't much assistance for buying the first home.

MAES: We had to work for it.

WASHBURN: And you got some loan I'm sure, somehow.

MAES: Yes, we got a loan on his brother's credit union, a loan on his credit union, a loan from his sister, and somebody else. When we finished paying our loans off we didn't have five cents left for the streetcar. But we made it. That 01:09:00was it. You had to pull your own weight. There was no--I think Carlos went to Bank of America one time and they refused him a loan. So we've never dealt with Bank of America. [laughter]

WASHBURN: Really? Ever since then?

MAES: Yes.

WASHBURN: Wow. Why did they refuse him?

MAES: No collateral.

WASHBURN: Mm-hmm. So was there ever any talk--I think we should finish up because I don't have too many more questions, but was there ever any talk of you guys going back to Modesto? Or you guys going back to New Mexico? War's over, you guys both left the shipyards. Why was it--why not get married and move back closer to family?

MAES: Why go back? Why go back? We were going forward. This was a better way. 01:10:00Carlos was independent of his family. It was a new life for us. We never went back. We didn't want to. There were better opportunities here. Better opportunities for your family, for your children. Better schools. That was it, that will do it.

WASHBURN: I think this is a good place to end, if you don't have any other questions. Do you want to add anything else, finally? That you think you left out? That you think sums some things out? Or no?

MAES: I can't think of anything that I didn't already--I'm very proud to be one of the Rosie the Riveter persons because that was the beginning of women coming out and learning more. I wanted to know more than I was getting, but unable to 01:11:00go attend universities or anyplace that I could get my answers. We stayed here. And for a better position for Carlos's work. First of all was his job. Yes, he made the living. Up to the very end. He still left me. [laughter]

WASHBURN: You said you wanted a better place and to learn new things. When there was a women's movement in the late sixties, seventies, in trying to make that equality of the workplace actual law--did you find yourself reading in the papers--

MAES: Participating?

WASHBURN: Yes.

MAES: No. I didn't participate, but I was all for it. I remember the women 01:12:00talking with men to get together, saying, "Oh, women want the same privileges that men have." We were never allowed--now I can see that it's getting pretty equal, no discrimination. That's when it started, the women that--even as--we started it. Carlos worked at Fremont, the women started going in there, in the work place. Men, on their break time they'd go watch the women work. [laughter]

WASHBURN: Why didn't you participate at all in any kind of formal way?

MAES: Remember, I was busy working. We didn't have ten minute's spare time. I had a line up: Wednesdays you do this, Tuesdays you do that--every day, every 01:13:00minute because Carlos worked and I worked. There was no extra time. Perhaps if I had been single and had extra time I would have made time. But it was not that important to me I guess. My job was my family. Carlos's job was to support the family. Go to the movies once in a while.

WASHBURN: Well thank you very much.

MAES: You're welcome, very much. I'm very happy to be interviewed.

WASHBURN: We'll get you a copy of this.

MAES: Promise?

MARCELO: Can we see your pictures?

WASHBURN: Just really quickly, this is taken where?

MAES: This is taken at Sweet's Ballroom. Oakland, California, 1943. Fourth of July. This is the memorial in Richmond. It has a walk. Each walk has an 01:14:00experience of what one of the women--what was her experience.

WASHBURN: Let me interrupt you. This is Carlos Maes and Mathilda, Santa Cruz.