Hanako Wakatsuki-Chong | Interview 2 | August 9, 2022

TEWES: This is a second interview with Hanako Wakatsuki-Chong for the Japanese American Intergenerational Narratives Oral History Project, in association with the Oral History Center at UC Berkeley. The interview is being conducted by Amanda Tewes on August 9, 2022. And Ms. Wakatsuki-Chong joins me this remote interview from Kaneohe, Hawai'i, and I am in Walnut Creek, California. So thank you, Hanako, for a second session. I appreciate it.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: No worries. Glad to be here.

TEWES: When we left off last time, we were speaking in depth about your public history career, because it so well aligns with Japanese American incarceration history. And indeed, you took a new job in March of 2021, continuing this work as the first superintendent of Hono'uli'uli National Historic Site. Can you tell me a little bit more about that 00:01:00site and its new presence in the Park Service?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I now apologize. I don't know if you can hear the ambulance in the background. So Hono'uli'uli was designated back in 2015 under President Obama. And the reason why I was selected was it's supposed to tell the story of the Japanese American incarceration in Hawai'i, and a lot of people, they're unaware that there was an incarceration in Hawai'i. It was definitely not to the same scale as on the continent, but it impacted the local community. So in Hawai'i, there are seventeen different sites that were associated immediately after attack on Pearl Harbor, and Hono'uli'uli was actually not one of those sites immediately where Japanese Americans and Japanese nationals were taken away to. It was actually a response to closing of Sand Island, but it became the most permanent and longest 00:02:00serving site in Hawai'i that held folks, but eventually became a prisoner of war camp later. So there's also potential opportunities of conflation, so we need to make sure people understand that, yes, there were POWs there, and there were actually Okinawans, Koreans, Taiwanese, and also Italian POWs who were caught on the frontline who was brought here; but then there were also civilians like Japanese Americans, Japanese nationals, and other Italians and Germans who were incarcerated there, as well, but they were not all POWs. And so originally in the designation was to focus on the Japanese American incarceration, but then later on in the Dingle Act in 2019, it kind of expanded our purview to also talk about the POW experience, as well. And so Hono'uli'uli is essentially supposed to be the demonstration site to talk about all the other Japanese American 00:03:00incarceration across the islands, and then also the POW experience, as well, but mostly focusing on Japanese American incarceration and tying it into the continental incarceration site.

Because one thing -- we could talk about terminology -- is that Hawai'i was illegally taken. It was a sovereign nation, and it hasn't necessarily been resolved. So a lot of people are saying, "Well, whose mainland is it?" So they do say "continental US," which makes sense, because we always use CONUS, so might as well adopt that language. But there were a lot of intersectionalities there where people on the big island were taken to, whether it's KMC, the Kilauea Military Camp or Haiku Camp. Some folks got then transferred to Sand Island, who then got transferred to the immigrant station, and 00:04:00then sent through Angel Island to the continental sites of like Rohwer or Topaz or Tule Lake. So there is there connections to our story in the continental story, and I think we have to teach the stories side-by-side so we could fully understand the whole Japanese American incarceration experience and not just only in like a vacuum of the Hawai'i incarceration experience or the continental, because there's so much going on. And some of those other facilities like Santa Fe and New Mexico and others, there were Japanese Americans and Japanese nationals from Hawai'i who are taken to those facilities. So there's a lot of overlap, and you kind of see a lot of it -- well, I shouldn't say a lot -- but you do see references to it in different kind of primary sources or other secondary sources where I think recently -- I think it's called the Tule Lake 00:05:00Stockade Diary. There's a reference in there about a gentleman from Hawai'i who ended up passing away. And I believe the author, which is one of my friend's -- I believe it's her grandfather -- was writing how they wanted to reach out to the family in Hawai'i to let the family know that this individual -- I think he was a husband and a father -- passed away, but the folks at Tule Lake wouldn't allow that. And so in his diary, he was feeling really bad that this family won't have closure on this situation. So there were like little snippets that you'll find in other continental sites that touches on these stories. Kind of like Fort Sill, where there was that one individual who just kind of had a mental breakdown and was 00:06:00trying to get back home and who was shot. And that individual was white, as well.

TEWES: You mentioned how this connects with other sites of incarceration. How are you seeing it fitting into larger World War II history and even civil rights/social justice history?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. It's definitely part of the narrative that not a lot of people know about. And even folks in the academic world, a lot of people know more about the Japanese American continental history, but not necessarily Hawai'i. And it's a little bit complicated out here in Hawai'i, as well, because the territory at the time went under martial law, and there's some confusion of what that meant. And some people are confused, were like, "Oh, are they even Japanese 00:07:00Americans?" It's like, "Yes, they were." Because some people aren't sure about what would citizen status be like as a territory, right? And so I feel like it's good to talk about this story, because we could kind of expose some of these uncertainties that people may have that may be clouding how they perceive the history. Because they're not sure and they're just like, "Oh, these are all Japanese people." But the reason there was a mass incarceration in Hawai'i is because the majority of the population had some sort of Japanese ancestry. And even within some of those reports -- like the Pringle Report was like, "There's really no need to do it. The FBI already identified the ABC list, so we'll just pull from those groups of suspects." And so understanding this kind of helps to me break down some of the stereotypes and the misinformation that continues to exist, right? But then 00:08:00also clarifying this World War II history. Because nearby is Pearl Harbor National Memorial. That is definitely the catalyst of the United States entering World War II, but yet we don't really talk about the home front aspects here, other than the naval history. And this is an opportunity to then talk more about the civilian side and hopefully open up more dialog amongst how people in Hawai'i experienced World War II, because it's very much through the lens of the military at this point. And hopefully Hono'uli'uli could kind of expose that from the civilian side of people getting incarcerated and being removed from the community, and talking about what that meant, and the communities that were essentially -- I don't know if this is the correct word -- like left behind as some of these business leaders and religious leaders were taken away.

TEWES: 00:09:00Thank you. That's a great explanation. I don't want to put you on the spot here, but when can we look forward to seeing this in action, seeing the park open?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Well, I can't give an exact date and time, but I can at least let you know what the process is. So right now, we are going through what we call a land acquisition process, where we're trying to acquire an additional twenty-two acres of the historic property. We're hoping that there's some sort of road infrastructure there that could potentially be how the public could get to the site. We are doing a transportation study right now, which should conclude by the end of the calendar year or beginning of next year, that would kind of give us options of how visitors can come to the site. And then once we get that transportation study, then we can enter into what we call a general management planning process, where then we go out to the public and we ask them, "Hey, what would you like to see at the site?" Some 00:10:00people like to see trails, some people want to see a building, or some people want to talk about the different themes that they want told. So we'll go out and we'll gather all that information, we'll collate it, and then the National Park Service will have different alternatives that they will choose from, to be like, this is going to be basically the blueprint of how this park is going to get established. And you can see this with Minidoka National Historic Site, which had a GMP [general management plan] done. I'm pretty sure Manzanar has one that was completed. Tule Lake, I worked on that one; that one's completed. So you can kind of see how there's this vision that's kind of laid out, and that would be how the park would evolve. Usually we call that between like a fifteen- to twenty-five-year plan, because it takes a while for us to get the funds, and we have to do some internal grant funding if it's like construction or rehabilitation.

So currently we do have a couple of projects that is coming underway and is stabilizing some 00:11:00of the historic structures that we have on site. So we have the historic retaining wall that's there. It's kind of bulging, and we need to stabilize that. So that project, I believe, is going to start sometime next spring. And then we're going to stabilize that, get it all kind of straightened out so it's all good to go. And then another project I'll be following the following year is our aqueduct project. So there was an historic aqueduct that was built during the plantation period that was kind of used during World War II, but then also as a barrier from a couple camps, because there were all these different compounds between the POWs and then also between the civilians. So that was kind of one of the demarcation lines. But one of the buttresses fell and we just want to stabilize that, so that's going to be the next project that we're working on. So we just recently -- I want to 00:12:00say it was three weeks ago or so -- our partners over at the Japanese Cultural Center of Hawai'i decided to host a blessing ceremony, knowing that we're having all this construction being done. So they invited a few folks, and then they had representatives coming out to do a blessing ceremony, which is really beautiful just to let our ancestors and the folks who lived off that space know that we're coming to disturb the site, but it's in good faith for preservation, just to be respectful culturally.

TEWES: Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing how that develops over the years. You mentioned Pearl Harbor is close by, and close enough, in fact, that I know you did some work with them recently, including over the eightieth anniversary of Pearl Harbor. I'm really 00:13:00curious what interpretation was like around that anniversary and what the visitor response was to that story.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah, that's a really good question. So the previous year I started this other program called Beyond Pearl Harbor, because I wanted to utilize this platform working at Pearl Harbor, because obviously there's a lot of history buffs, a lot of people who are very interested and knowledgeable about this period and place in history, right? And so to me it's like, well, we already have this built-in audience. How could we actually get them to holistically kind of see a little bit more outside this very narrow scope of the attack on Pearl Harbor? And so for the seventy-ninth anniversary, we started off this Beyond Pearl Harbor, trying to introduce different narratives like the Manhattan Project, Tuskegee Airmen, trying to include other World War II 00:14:00sites. Because I truly believe that Pearl Harbor, at least in Hawai'i as a tourist destination -- it's, I think, the number one tourist destination as of today -- sometimes we get about 7,000 visitors, sometimes it's more. We get quite a few people who come out, and then there's already this online presence of people who are interested. So I wanted to kind of push the envelope to kind of educate folks more to make those connections. Because we at the National Park Service, we have 423 park units -- there's twenty-fourth coming online -- but sometimes we don't really do good connecting with other sites. And coming from Japanese American confinement sites, I'm like, well, we should use this as a platform to try to get people to know the other historical sites out there, but then also to broaden out their understanding of World War 00:15:00II history. So again, we did some programming. There was some feedback online where they're like, "We shouldn't have to apologize for these things," kind of the general response that I would have gotten from Minidoka when sometimes we put stuff online. I don't necessarily think it's based out of racism, but I think a lot of it is out of ignorance, right, where people were just kind of upset, because we had like the Minidoka Park film on there and other Japanese American incarceration history. Because this is us coming from Tadaima! and we had all this content that was created for the 2020 Tadaima! So that was the initial feedback. But when the eightieth came around, we used that model again, and I think it was fine, because it's still trying to 00:16:00get people to understand this larger narrative.

And for the eightieth anniversary, I was working with Erika Moritsugu, who is currently my supervisor, because I'm on a detail with the White House. I was working with her, so we got a statement from President Biden and then a proclamation for the eightieth anniversary, which was really cool, because we were able to get prints of that proclamation and give it to survivors who came to the programming, which, because it was during COVID, we had to limit the amount of people who could come out. But we really wanted to make sure that those who are Pearl Harbor survivors were able to get one of those proclamations. And then we even had David Ono from Los Angeles. He's a journalist out of, I believe it's KTLA. He came out and he was our emcee and did a phenomenal 00:17:00job doing that. It's interesting, because he is Shin Nikkei, so he's multiracial, but then he also doesn't have the history of Japanese Americans and the incarceration in his history, but he's interested in preserving this history.

So to me it kind of grabs on these different threads where it's all like, yes, you don't have to be part of the community to want to learn this history; you can be adjacent, you can just be interested in it. Because no one ever questions anyone who's like, "I'm a Civil War buff," or, "I love medieval history." But then when it comes to ethnic history in the United States, I feel like people just make an assumption that the only reason why you're interested in it is because you're ethnically associated. And I actually had an intern who was a local white kid that we hired, who had this identity 00:18:00crisis, because I think within a week he was asked five times if he was Japanese American. And then I had to sit down with him. It's like, "Oh, that's what racism is. They don't understand why you think this is important." And so I had to coach him on that.

Within the Pearl Harbor eightieth anniversary we're trying to touch on all these subjects. I was doing this kind of as a collateral duty and didn't have all the support that I wish I could have had, but it's because the park was going through some transitions. So it isn't anything like no one was trying to not give support, it was just circumstance. But I think we did our best to try to reach out to different audiences. And then now the capacity has grown at the park that I think that they're taking it on again to do an online program to try to expand the Beyond Pearl Harbor narrative. So again, we could try to touch base with other park units and get people to think 00:19:00outside of this narrow scope, because, yes, it's Pearl Harbor National Memorial, but there are other stories that can be touched on that isn't just about white naval history.

TEWES: Thank you. You were at the right place at an interesting time. [laughs] I wanted to hear about that. You mentioned the Japanese American Confinement Sites Group within the National Park Service. Is there anything you want to mention about what that group is and your involvement?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. So I guess my involvement right now is that I am the lead for the -- and now it's been recategorized as the Japanese American Confinement Sites Working Group, because it's been like -- I don't know what's the correct terminology -- like blessed by regional directors, and that's the official name, because apparently there's different qualifications for different names. So we were 00:20:00stuck with the "working group," which is great, so now we have this recognition. So we have an executive committee and that's based off of people working in different fields. So like interpretation or cultural resources, administration and whatnot. But then we also have subcommittees within to work on different kind of issues, whether it's like if there's threats to these sites, or if it's interpretative or educational issues, or wanting to create like a subcommittee to kind of work together on different stuff.

02-00:20:31 So basically, we're just kind of this smaller working group within the Park Service that doesn't just include the Japanese American confinement sites. So we do have representatives from Pearl Harbor; Manhattan Project; from Alaska, because there's like Fort Richardson up there, which is a little bit different because it was Department of Army, but then also separated 00:21:00Native Americans who were affiliated. If there were mixed children, the males were sent to Minidoka, but then the women and girls were kept at these different facilities. But then it was also conflated with you had Japanese nationals who were in the military, who were caught with kind of POW status. And I don't think I'm exactly stating it correctly, but there's information out there that I look at. But we also have people from the National Mall, because there's the National Japanese American Memorial to patriotism out there. So it isn't just only like Tule Lake, Minidoka, Manzanar, Hono'uli'uli, it's a wide variety of folks. And even some of our partners. We have the Wing Luke Museum. They're an affiliate, and so they participate in this program.

So usually whenever there's a public 00:22:00concern, like sometimes I'll get emails from the community that want us to address something, I'll bring it up to that. And then sometimes when there's legislation or something that's going on within that higher level, then like the Washington office will reach out to us and say, "What do you guys think about XYZ?" and we'll provide our comments there. So it's a good opportunity, at least for us, to first be organized, and then be recognized and then sought for our advice, which is something that in the past we didn't necessarily have all of those components, right, where there are certain people who are recognized and their advice was sought after, but it was never seen as a collective working group. It's always individuals, right? So at least we finally got the bureaucratic stamp of approval so we can move forward on that.

But then we have other 00:23:00programs that came out of it, kind of like our dealing with the websites and trying to get terminology all figured out. And then we worked on the terminology paper, which was interesting, because when I first started off in the Park Service, I want to say it was back in 2013 we started it, and then life happens, people transition out. I left the Park Service. I know that this network -- because at the time we called it a network -- I think that they tried to work on it and brought it up. Again, life happens. Sometimes you have capacity issues with work. But when I came back to the Park Service at Minidoka, I was like, "Hey, where's this at?" So we were able to work on it, push it through, which was great, because now it's been adopted by our Harpers Ferry Style Guide, which is the Park Service Style Guide, and then we're 00:24:00able to have the white paper online as a resource.

02-00:24:06 And I feel like because we're able to finally get a government entity to recognize the importance of terminology and why words matter, I feel like it's trickling down. Because recently I worked on the Day of Remembrance Program for the eightieth anniversary this year with the Smithsonian and Heart Mountain Wyoming Foundation. And I was assisting with some drafting of language, but then also sent our terminology paper up to the White House. You could see how it's been reflected in the presidential proclamation. So if you look at the presidential proclamation from this year and even compare it to the -- I don't know if he did a proclamation last year, I think that was maybe a memorandum -- you could tell that the language has shifted, 00:25:00because now you have a government agency that is helping, providing comments and education on terminology to the executive arm, and then it's more representative of the community. So I've gotten a lot of feedback from a lot of community members of how they actually felt seen, because they could tell that the language that was used, that there was a lot of research had gone into this proclamation. And it's because it was a labor of love by a few, and we just wanted to make sure that it was going to be accurate. And we didn't get everything that we wanted, but it's the best that we ever had. So yeah, so this working group kind of helps out with some of these larger issues at the higher level, I should 00:26:00say. But then we could also deal with the leaks. So if there are issues that come up, we could deal with those specific ones, too.

TEWES: That's a good example. I suppose we should state specifically what the terminology was that's changing in this paper.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Oh yeah, yeah.

TEWES: Go ahead.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. So a lot of it is because I think a lot of people have heard the use of "internment." And we know at the academic level -- I shouldn't say level -- but through the academic lens, it's like that is actually an inaccurate use of that term. And the US government also used "concentration camp" during World War II, and eventually the terminology kind of transitioned. And why it transitioned, it could be speculative, but it could be like the atrocities out of Europe was coming to light or they just wanted to use different terms to make it more palatable for the community. It's like there are different theories out there why it started to 00:27:00change, but I don't think that we've been able to actually find the exact reason. But I think it could be some of everything, the reason why. But it's like when I talk to incarcerees, if they are using the term that they're an "internee," that they were "interned," obviously we're not going to correct them, because it's their lived experience, they could say whatever that they want to say. But coming from now a government official where we're preserving this history, it's like we need to be mindful of the words that we're using so we're not trying to provide that misinformation. Because even in Idaho when I was working at Minidoka, there was a whole bunch of confusion where there was literally a German POW camp about fifty miles away. So a lot of the people who were around that area assumed that Minidoka was a POW camp. So they're like, "Oh, these are Japanese people who are caught on the frontlines," not recognizing that they were civilians from the West Coast, right? And so using accurate language is 00:28:00helpful, it helps clarify misunderstandings. And it also, I think, just acknowledges what occurred.

And again, the only new terminology I would say that we're using is "incarceration," because we're using that more as a bridging term, because obviously there's a lot of emotions surrounding the term "concentration camp," because a lot of people, when you hear that term, there's an association to the death camps out in Europe. I've had conversations with the US Holocaust Museum where they also realize that they've been using euphemistic terms to talk about this history. And at one point in time, I want to say it was back in 2012 or so, they said that they wanted to eventually transition to using accurate terms, where if it was a gulag, it was that; if it was a ghetto, it was that; if it was literally a concentration camp where they're concentrating a lot of people, they'll call it 00:29:00that; if it was a labor camp, they'll call it a "labor camp"; if it was a death camp or an extermination camp, they'll label it as such. Since we use that language so much, there's always that identification of the European Front.

And so like personally and within Minidoka, we were using the bridging terms of "incarceration," "incarcerees." And I know sometimes people would copy edit, they're like, "'Incarceree' is not a word." But I'm like, "Well, but if the community chooses to use the term, they could create whatever word that they want." And I know that some people want to use the "term prisoners," as well. So there was just this whole discussion that was done about twenty-five years or so ago within the Japanese American community. And actually, it's probably more close to thirty years ago, because it was when the Japanese American National Museum was doing their exhibit 00:30:00called -- I think it was American Concentration Camp that was over at Ellis Island. Yeah. And if you guys find our white paper, we do have all of that, part of our discussions. So if you need a link to everything, you could see that. But that was this discussion that happened between the Jewish community and Japanese American community. And I know I'm distilling this down, hopefully not too much, but essentially was like, hey, no one owns these terms, and as long as we describe and qualify that's helpful. And that's why the Minidoka Park film, it's Minidoka: An American Concentration Camp, to kind of show the difference. And we actually got a complaint about that from an individual. But we wrote a response and that individual never responded back to that. But I also invited the individual to watch the film, because at the time we weren't even showing it. We just had a little card thing, if you would like to prepurchase this DVD you could 00:31:00buy it. And the complaint was their father was in World War II and he would be rolling in his grave if he saw that we were calling these sites the same thing, which we're not.

So I know that there's a lot of emotional baggage around the word, but I think the more we talk about it and we could understand, I think that that will help us move on in the future. So this whole terminology paper is discussing some of these issues, and then how the Japanese American community has been discussing this for a really long time and actually adopted language, I want to say, in the early 2000s. So we, as the National Park Service, are literally behind academia and the community. Between our different park units, we were talking about different things, using different terms. And not that we had to all use the same term, but we should 00:32:00all have a same baseline understanding. So it was an opportunity for us to just kind of recalibrate on how we do our own interpretation. We have our own autonomy, but then it's good to have some kind of baseline documentation of where we kind of move on from. Hopefully that kind of covered what --

TEWES: Thank you, that was very helpful. Obviously it's a very complicated issue, but it is interesting to hear from someone who's been working on this and pushing this forward from the NPS side.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Can I at least make one comment? I don't know if there's any correlation at all, but it was actually really interesting. I want to say it was a few months ago the AP changed their style guide to no longer use "internment." So that's something just to think about, where that's the journalistic style 00:33:00guide for the Associated Press. To me, that's a big win, because now when people are seeing in the media, especially in journalistic news sources, and if "internment" is being used, they could immediately say, "Look at the AP." Because before it was all like, "Okay, look at the JACL [Japanese American Citizens League] Power of Words." And it's like, "Oh, that's a community thing." And then it's like, "Oh well, look at the Harpers Ferry Style Guide." It's like, "Ah, it's the Park Service." If there's any naysayers, they can't really refute it if it's the Associated Press, because, again, they're the ones that set the stylistic guide for the press. And so now there's an opportunity for us to then help change how other people, specifically journalists who end up touching a lot of people because of the exposure, that we could help maybe have another wave of 00:34:00education to try to use more adequate terminology as we talk about this history.

TEWES: That's great. I hadn't realized the AP had changed their style guide. But I wouldn't downplay the work that you put into that and the work that many people have put into changing the language over the years.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. There's a few people who headed this. And one person, her name is Mako Nakagawa, she was really trying to do this, get the terminology not resolved, but talk about it. And she was the first one that actually introduced me to this. But she passed away several years ago. And a lot of my mentors throughout the years, I just wish that they were around to see it, because I know that they've been working so hard. So it isn't like I was working in a vacuum; I'm working off of many giants' shoulders, where they did a lot of the work, and whether they were former incarcerees or other descendants. But 00:35:00so many people have been pushing towards this, so I'm just happy to be part of the process. But yes, it was basically a community initiative that finally came to light.

TEWES: Thank you. An excellent point about mentorship. Well, speaking about the influence that this work can have, [laughs] and one can have on this work, you are also doing some work now with the White House as a policy advisor on -- let's see if I get this right -- AANHPI [Asian American, Native Hawai'ian, Pacific Islanders] policy.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah.

TEWES: All the acronyms in here. Is there anything you want to say about that particular project?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. Well, there is some intersection with the work that I did with the Japanese American Confinement Sites. Being this policy advisor is great, because I'm focusing on Asian American Native Hawai'ians and Pacific 00:36:00Islanders to talk about these stories. And more specifically for the JACS sites, we recently went to Heart Mountain Pilgrimage and working on some other issues kind of revolving around some of these Japanese American Confinement Sites. So one of the things was with Amache. You know, the White House was involved -- I shouldn't say involved, but they were keeping tabs on it as it was going through Congress to get passed and whatnot. So I wasn't in this detail then, but I've heard since. But there's a lot of intersections, because we are trying to be representative of all the AANHPI communities.

But there's other stuff that's been amazing that doesn't have to deal directly with the Japanese American Confinement Sites, but some of my portfolio is dealing with the insular areas. So learning more about the 00:37:00territories and the Freely Associated States and the COFA Compact and trying to make sure how are we supporting these communities that needs assistance and just identifying issues that we could potentially see if we could help out with it or not. I'm working on hiring issues within the federal government, so working with the Office of Personnel Management. And then hopefully, like once there's an Asian Pacific American Museum, that Congressional study, as that starts moving along, it'll be interesting to see what happens there and the involvements of trying to find people to help assist or provide different inputs on our stuff. So I think that there will always continuously be some aspects of the work, of this policy advisor position in the future to deal with the Japanese American 00:38:00incarceration history, and at the larger level just the general AANHPI communities to make sure that they're represented, and if there are issues that come up again, we could try to assist. Sometimes we're not able to find solutions, and sometimes we can't and sometimes it takes a whole bunch of people to find a solution. But if we don't know about it, we can't move forward on it. So yeah, so that's that in a nutshell.

TEWES: Thank you. I want to transition from your personal work and your life here to thinking about the historic version of this and your own family's connection. We've spoken a little bit about that, but I want to remind us about your paternal family's experience during World War II as a Japanese American family. Can you remind us where your family was 00:39:00living at that time?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. So I come from a really large clan, but my great-grandparents were living on Terminal Island and my grandparents were in Santa Monica area. And I think that some of my great aunts and uncles, the older siblings of my grandfather, they were in the LA area, as well. So immediately after the attack on Pearl Harbor, like my grandfather was a fisherman, so he was taken away by the FBI, and then there was also the exclusion from Terminal Island. So the first group of people to be excluded from their place of living was Terminal Island. But then sometimes people get it confused with Bainbridge Island. They were the first people removed from their homes into an incarceration site. So that's the separation when you hear those being used. But anyway, so my grandfather basically had my grandmother and 00:40:00her mother, so basically, I had four generations of my family incarcerated. But he had basically had his grandmother and his mother and then his younger siblings move in with him in Santa Monica. And he at least had the foresight of putting as much of the family under one family number. So you see that our family list, most of them are the same family number, other than a few of my aunties who are already married; then they went under their husband's last name. Yeah. I'd say it was like fourteen or something people.

So after my great-grandfather was taken away by the FBI, people didn't know where he went. And then my great-grandmother tried to not only take care of her elderly mother but is also trying to take care of her kids, but also worried about her husband and where he's at. And then 00:41:00here's my grandfather who's trying to figure out like, Okay, I need to be the head of household, because his older brother has his own family to take care of, and then he's the next oldest son and then he's trying to also take care of his younger siblings. So basically, my grandmother tried to help with that situation, too, while he's trying to figure out what's going on. So it seemed like there was a lot of confusion in that aspect. And then our family went to Santa Anita and then eventually to Manzanar, and eventually my great-grandfather was reconnected with our family. He was held at Fort Lincoln. And essentially the FBI or whoever was interrogating him, they kind of worked him and he kind of came back a little bit broken, a bit alcoholic, which caused conflict within the family unit.

When I talk to my 00:42:00Great Aunt Jeanne [Wakatsuki Houston] -- a lot of people know her as the author of Farewell to Manzanar -- she remembers my grandmother, so that's Chizu, as more of a motherly figure during those times, because her mother wasn't emotionally necessarily there for the children, because when her father was reintroduced back into the family there was that conflict. So she talks fondly of my grandmother and how she was always there to support her. I didn't realize how much my grandmother took on during that time, because my grandmother always had an infant -- that was my Aunt Patty -- then she ended up having three children in camp. So that was my Uncle George, Uncle Woody, and then Aunt Joanne in camp. But then on 00:43:00top of that she's taking care of the younger in-laws. So essentially, she's kind of like a single mother, because my grandfather, he was drafted into the military and there's this whole discussion within our family about how my grandfather wanted to prove loyalty so he wanted to enlist, but then my great-grandfather was like, "Look at what your country did to me. I don't want you to die before you have to." So they came to an agreement that they'll just wait until he gets enlisted.

So I think about all of that. Because right now I'm thirty-six. My grandmother was twenty-six or twenty-seven when she went to camp. First of all, I can't even imagine being a parent, let alone being a parent ten years ago. But then thinking about, oh, my aunt was ten years younger than me right now. She had a whole 00:44:00set of children and then also taking care of her younger in-laws and trying to manage through all of this. That's a lot, right? I can't even imagine what it would have been like, there's nothing in my life that could equate to even a small notion of that. And then you just amplify that, where this isn't just one story, there's like 100,000 people who experienced this, as well, in different ways. And then even the children who are born in camp. Many people are like, "Oh, I don't remember anything, it doesn't mean anything." But they're carrying this, because their parents internalized it. And that's why we have these weird Japanese American works where we hear stories about saving tofu containers 00:45:00and all these rubber bands. It's all a derivative from camp, but I guess you could say from World War II, because I know other people from different cultures have similar hoarding practices because of the availability of resources. But it does trickle down.

Yeah, it's really interesting to see how people, whether they overcome it or not. Because my grandfather, originally he was recruited into the 522, so that's an armored tank battalion. But eventually got pulled to the Military Intelligence Service, so he actually was in Japan and then did a little bit during the post-occupation, as well. And then came back home and as a vet couldn't find a job, so he ended up becoming a Nisei 00:46:00wrestler. So there's like this small contingency of Japanese American men who ended up going on the wrestling circuit, because white wrestlers needed an enemy to fight. So my grandfather performed under the name of Professor Sugi. So he did that for a while, but he was still kind of part of the wrestling circuits, I want to say all the way up until the sixties, seventies kind of thing. I don't think he was wrestling towards the end of his life, but I think he was still part of that group.

TEWES: Wow, Hanako, so much to unpack here.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah, sorry.

TEWES: No, it's just so much interesting information that you're sharing. I do want to just note that your family lived in the LA area and on Terminal Island and they're a fishing 00:47:00family. And you mentioned your grandmother's name, and what was your grandfather's name?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Woodrow Mann Wakatsuki. And I guess one little tidbit is our family never went back into fishing, because our family had two fishing boats and it was all confiscated. So afterwards, there was no way that they could afford it. You think about the economic impacts that it has on people afterwards. Because you have people who owned property where they either sold it pennies to the dollar or they just abandoned the property or gave it away, asked friends to watch over property and they never got it back. And some people did get it back. So there was a whole variety of experiences. But seeing the economic devastation is pretty high. I don't think I'm quoting this exactly correctly right now, because my brain is kind of 00:48:00foggy, but I want to say in 1948, I think they called it the Evacuee Claims Program or something, where people who were incarcerated could file claims on property lost. And I think at the time there was over $300 million worth of claims, and then I believe that they distributed, I want to say, between 3 and $5 million. So that's why, when redress came along, they're like, "Look at this." And these aren't even all the people who tried to make claims. But then it was that. So that's why with redress -- I think originally Senator Inouye and Norm Mineta was trying to go for a bigger paycheck, but it's because they're like, "Look at this. If you include inflation, it would be this." But $20,000 is something that we could settle on.

But that economic impact is huge. And there are academic articles that talk about a lot of these economic impacts, 00:49:00because when you look on the West Coast when people are being taken away, it's interesting that most of the time the removals was right before the first harvest. And I can't remember, I'll have to go back and try to find this paper, but someone wrote an article on this. Because there was one individual whose family was trying to actually harvest, but it wasn't a good time, so they set their farm on fire. They're just like, "Whatever. If I can't reap the benefits, no one's going to get it." And I think that they sold the property or something. But people were mad at them for doing it and they're just like, "Oh, so you wanted it for the money. This wouldn't be an issue if it were just for the land." And no one ever said, "I'll harvest it and I'll give you half of whatever it is." So that's why they did that. And there were several farms that did that, where families were just like, "If I can't have it, 00:50:00no one's going to have it," kind of thing. But there was a lot of economic motivations, and that's the reason why the whole mass incarceration on the West Coast happened. The Farmers Association, the Sons of the American West, people were upset at some of the Japanese American families who were actually able to farm these lands at a more productive rate than others. Yeah, anyways. So there's a correlation there, I would just say.

TEWES: The last time we spoke, you mentioned your grandfather's service and the complication of the loyalty questionnaire for the community and for your family, in particular. I want to pivot, though, and think about: what do you know about the 00:51:00community your family was able to build at Manzanar, if at all?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: That's a really tough question, because none of my family talked about it, right, so I don't know. Only from my aunt's experience as documented in her memoir. There's that. But it didn't seem like it was a strong community. And I don't know if this is accurate, but to me, the way I always took it, was they were just trying to survive as a family unit. So there wasn't a lot of time and investment made to create that sense of community. But I do know that my grandmother, Chizu, she was very religious, and that's what helped her get through the camp. And I know that she befriended Sister Bernadette at Manzanar. So I don't know what kind of community that 00:52:00was, if it was just a friendship relationship or if she kind of consistently went to church or whatnot. But I know that that lasted after camp, because some of my aunties recall, "Oh, there's this Mary Knoll nun who would come over." And then when my grandmother passed away, we were going through her stuff and then we found this picture of Jesus that was kind of a paper printout. So I don't know if it was actually from camp or if it was later on, but on the back it had Sister Bernadette's name, that she gave that to my grandmother. And so my grandmother kept that, and she put all of her children's pictures in it and some of my older cousin's before it got too full and she couldn't shut it. But I know that helped her get through. But the community aspect, I don't think that they were super active, or I just 00:53:00haven't heard stories. I think that they were just trying to survive, but that's just speculation.

TEWES: Thank you. Well, it's interesting. I was thinking about your grandmother's religiosity. I know your Great Aunt Jeanne spoke about in Farewell to Manzanar her interest in converting to Catholicism, and so it's definitely something that was happening in Manzanar at that time. And we also spoke last time about the family's return to the Los Angeles area, and their diminished economic circumstances and that your father grew up in public housing. But I'm curious: do you know why they wanted to return to LA, if fishing didn't look like it was going to be a part of the atmosphere anymore?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah, I don't know exactly why. I think it's also because it's home, because my grandmother was born in Los Angeles. And they eventually made their way to Long 00:54:00Beach, and I think it was just a little bit cheaper out there. But then I also think going back to the fishing ties was something, as well. Because fishing doesn't really cost much. Well, nowadays it costs a lot, because you have to get a permit and all this other stuff. Because I remember my dad told me the stories. This is when he was ten or twelve, so it had to be in the fifties, where he said that this is when he realized that they were poor, because he always thought that they were well off because they always had more than their neighbors. But when he reflected back, he's like, "So I guess maybe we just didn't really have much at all." But he went out fishing. Because he does remember fishing a lot as a kid and I guess it was with his older brother. So it's 00:55:00Woody, Jr., and then George. They went out, but they had so much fun that they just kind of stayed out all night, they had a little bonfire on the beach. And he remembers his mom was pissed when they got home, because she was trying to call to see did something happen to them or trying to figure out if anyone saw the kids. I think she went out and then either found them or somehow, they both met up back at the house. And apparently there was a wall in the house where apparently they got in trouble a lot, that she'll just knock their heads up against the drywall, and so there's dents. So they had to line up, and then that was a day where they got knocked in the head. And he remembers my grandmother specifically saying, "Your sisters went to bed hungry." Basically, "You guys were being selfish about it." And he told me that he reflected from that day, that he's like, "Shit," he didn't think that he was 00:56:00poor, but when his mom said that he's like, "Oh, I'm going to be on time next time and I'll make sure I bring the fish." And that was his recollection of when he realized that they were living in poverty, and what he thought was recreational was actually a source of food for his family, and it didn't click until that time. I talked to my aunt, his younger sister, Aunt Christina, and she's like, "Well, I think that maybe mom was just trying to freak us out." And I was like, "I don't know. It really impacted my dad."

02-00:56:36 And I look at what my dad did. He made sure that he paid for one of my aunt's college. I found out actually on a pilgrimage to Tule Lake, there was a woman who apparently dated my dad. I had no clue. And so we were talking and she's like, "Yeah, we all wanted to go on a date with your dad, because he was such a gentleman." So my 00:57:00dad went to community college, but was working for IBM at the time, so he was one of the guys that actually had a real job. So he would take my aunt and her girlfriends out. So the dating wasn't like dating, like dating, it's like going out for dinner. And my dad would be like, "Okay," he'll pay for the meal, but then he'll ask them to get something to go, so then they have food for the next day. And I see my dad -- well, he passed away a few years ago, but he would do stuff like that. And then I wonder if that goes back to that and that moment in time where he realized he was poor and he doesn't want to see other people like that, tried to give opportunities. So anyways.

TEWES: That's a really vivid example of the intergenerational impacts of incarceration. I suppose I should ask when your father was born. Was it after the incarceration?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. So my father was the 00:58:00first child born after camp, free, so 1948. And then his sister, his older sister, Aunt Joanne, was the last child born in camp in 1946. Of my family, not of the whole camp experience.

TEWES: We just mentioned one example, but if you had to characterize the impact that incarceration had on your particular family, what would you say that is?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Well, I think it spans to other families in different ways, but I do definitely think the biggest thing that I feel -- so this is only a "me statement" -- is that the loss of identity I think is the biggest 00:59:00thing. Because I'm still trying to find my identity, and it's because I feel like you couldn't be proud of your heritage during camp, and afterwards it was basically like Americanization. And so it's really interesting, because I didn't grow up eating any Japanese food, and I think I mentioned it last time, where it's like my dad wanted more Mexican food. And a lot of the food I now think about, like my grandmother made when I was younger, was either Mexican food or I guess I'll just call it generic white American food, was eggs and stuff like that. Yeah. We'll have a pot of rice, but it wasn't like, oh, we're going to make this very specific Japanese thing. Just like, oh, we got rice with whatever we're eating. So I think that loss of 01:00:00identity and culture, the food aspects and the language aspects and then just in the general self-identity, is part of the generational trauma that I experience. I don't know if my cousins experience the same thing.

But then I also felt like I couldn't be proud being Asian in general, and I'm also half Korean. And so it's only been recently that I actually used both my last names. Because even working within the Park Service, I felt that I'm the professional Japanese American and I made this narrative up in my mind where it's like, Well, people know me professionally with my first last name, so I don't want to confuse them with my second last name. But now working with the White House Initiative and specifically now within the White House in the Office of the Chief of Staff, I'm like, I could be all my identities at once and it's okay. Which, for some reason, it never felt like I 01:01:00could do that until now, living in Hawai'i. [laughs] Because before it's like I was always trying to not stand out, trying to justify my Americanness; and now over here it's like no one cares, [laughs] which is super liberating. But I feel that's probably the biggest thing, at least for me and my family, that I have, is just that loss of identity and then trying to find it.

And now it's hard to find it when you've lost a lot of your elders. So it's like I have to create a pseudo family through my pilgrimage experiences and doing other community-based things and adopt people. I remember I made this super weird for one of my friends who was in his eighties, and I was like, "Hey, George, can I adopt you as my grandpa?" And he's like, "What? I already have grandkids." I was like, "But I don't have any grandparents left." And he's like, 01:02:00"Okay." Maybe I was too forward. He's probably like, "Does this kid want money?" And all I wanted was just a grandpa to hang out with. At the time I was living in Tule Lake. I'd go home, and then I'll go meet him at his nursing home and take him to Walmart, go get his hair cut, normally we'd get dinner, then take him back. Because at that point, I didn't have any grandparents left. And I never got to spend any time with a grandfather figure, because my grandfather died before I was born, my paternal grandfather, and then my maternal grandfather, he passed away when I was relatively young, so I never had that. But I got to spend time with my grandmothers, right? I just remember his face. But then I'm glad that he was cool about it. [laughs] But yeah, that's how I tried to find some aspects of my identity through other people, which may or may not be appropriate. [laughs] It's 01:03:00like anyways.

TEWES: Thank you for sharing that. I will say one thing that I feel is a bit unique about your family history is that many people don't know very much at all about their family's incarceration experience, but as we've alluded to, your Great Aunt Jeanne wrote Farewell to Manzanar, and she really chronicled this experience pretty closely -- albeit from her perspective as a child, but also looking back a bit. And you mentioned that you first read this around third or fourth grade on your own?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Mm-hmm.

TEWES: Did your family talk to you at all after you'd read it?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: No. It was like, "Here's a book about your family. Read it." And it's like the coming of age and then that's it. "Did you read it?" "Yeah, I read it." "Okay," and then that's it. We just moved on. Even from a child's perspective, if you don't have any 01:04:00dialogue afterwards it's just kind of in a vacuum and you're just like, "Well, I read something," but you can't really comprehend it without the assistance.

And then none of my family really talked about it. My grandmother didn't talk about it. I tried interviewing her about it without recognizing the trauma that she endured. And so that was kind of a bust at the time. But when I reflect back upon it, I feel terrible, because I remember my dad's like, "Grandma's not doing good. You should talk to her about camp." And then I just set up a camera and I'm like, "Grandma, tell me about camp," not really having any sophisticated questions other than very broad things. And her initial response was, "Yeah, when I was a little, I used to play tennis in the street." It's like, Oh okay. Well, maybe she's going senile. I was sixteen at the time and I was just making assumptions. But reflecting now it's like, 01:05:00who was I? And shoving a camera in someone's face and not really even asking for consent. I didn't even ask her, "Hey, can I talk to you about camp?" It was like, "Oh, Dad told me to set up this thing and I'm going to do this." So it helped me become a better person, especially when I'm dealing with incarceration history, because I've been in weird situations, but this at least helped me understand some people are still processing and it's okay wherever they're at in this and we can't force it. If they're not ready to talk -- and some people will never be ready to talk, and I think she was one of those people. It gave me a better look at how people respond to stuff, and then having like a little bit more empathy and compassion if they don't want to talk about it.

Because I've been in a situation where when I was a volunteer with Friends of Minidoka. One of the 01:06:00pilgrimages, we were doing a tour, and I was over by the swimming pool. And usually, we'd tell a story about the reason why they created the swimming pool was because several people died in the canal. And it wasn't until the last two deaths -- they were actually adults -- but there was a child that actually drowned. So I just said that story. I didn't think I was super flippant, but I was like, "Well, and this was the response, was this." And then I'm like, "Okay, we're going to go back on the trails, so let's all walk." And there was a gentleman just hanging out. I noticed he was going through something, so I just said, "Hey, what's going on? We're going to continue on." And he's just, "This is all wrong." And I was like, "Okay. You want to talk about it?" And he's all like, "Yeah, this is messed up." And I'm like, "Okay." I'm trying to figure out what is the 01:07:00context. And he's like, "I'm a parent. You talked about a kid dying. My friend died there. The administration made me go tell his parents that he died." And he's like, "I was a kid, and now as a parent, I would not want my kid's best friend to tell me that my son died." And so he's like processing this all out loud and I realized, Oh okay. I didn't want him to have a giant meltdown. And maybe he needed it, maybe he didn't, but I was like, I didn't even think about it at that time, because it was the first couple years I was doing tours. After that incident, I tried to get the skills and tried to find ways to figure out if people either needed space to process -- because I did ask him, "Do you want to stay here by yourself or do you want to follow?" And I can't remember what he 01:08:00chose, but I realized, I am so ill-equipped to deal with people who are coming back -- most of the time it's their first time ever coming back to these sites. So I at least try with my interns and folks to at least prepare them when they come up with these. Not come up with it, but when things like this happen to them, that they know that they need to take the time to help stabilize the situation so we don't do more damage, right? Yeah. So it's just one of those things. And I'm sorry, I think I kind of went way off course here, because I can't remember the original question, but I swear that it probably ties back.

TEWES: It does, it does. Because you were talking about how your family didn't really discuss the history still. But I'm 01:09:00curious, considering your [Great] Aunt Jeanne put this out in the world, if she had talked to you personally about it. Was she open to conversation?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. So we did a couple road trips. But most of the time she didn't really want to talk about like that. We talked about other stuff, because she wanted to do more research in the Owens Valley and stuff like that. Because I also didn't want to retraumatize her. And there was actually a situation where -- I'm trying to figure out how to say this. So we went back to Manzanar and know some folks who wanted to do an oral history with her. They kind of forced her into it, because in her mind, she provided three declinations, but I think it's just like cultural competency. They didn't hear it, because she was being very passive about it. And then at the end it was like, Fine, I'll do whatever you want kind of thing. And she did tell 01:10:00me, she's like, "Come get me in fifteen minutes," because she's like, "I am not prepared for this." And I knew that she doesn't like living in this space all the time, because it retraumatizes her. And so I knew not to really ask her anything, because she would just provide information to me once she feels like it. When we would talk about my grandmother, she's always like, "Oh yeah, Chizu was so great. She would do this for me. Oh, in camp I remember she did XYZ. She took me here." So I never prodded her on that, because she made it very clear when I kind of got reconnected with her as an adult that it's not necessarily a space she wants to live in, but she knows it's important to talk about it. And the book was a healing process for her. She never said it in these terms, but this is how I view it. I think she sees it as her responsibility to kind of take on this burden of 01:11:00emotional baggage to help educate people about it. So I try not to add to that baggage by asking her, if that makes sense.

TEWES: It does. I'm wondering, though, if that has an impact on how you were able to process this.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: I guess. I don't think it impacted me, because, again, being in community at all these other pilgrimages and kind of adopting a family of folks who are open to talk about it, even though it's not my experience, it's still our experience. Not even within the Japanese American community, but in American history, right? I don't necessarily feel like I need to know all the exact experiences of my family to 01:12:00understand this experience as a whole. And I've been provided really great opportunities to meet amazing people who have helped me process through some of these issues. And I'm still, like what I said, still processing about my identity in many ways, too. But I don't feel like, because I don't get to hear my immediate family's history and all that I've heard, I don't think it's impacting me to process this, because there's other ways that we could process it. I'm fortunate enough that at least I have something documented. And then I actually pulled my family's records from the National Archives and learning a little bit more about that. I showed it to my [Great] Aunt Jeanne because I was like, "Did you know you got your tonsils taken out?" She's like, "Yeah." She's like, "I don't remember it bothering me," which makes me think she's probably one of the few people that had this unnecessary surgery, because there was an individual who was doing 01:13:00unnecessary surgeries at the camp. And then there's like her grades in there, stuff that she doesn't really remember, too. So there's other ways to piecemeal the history without actually having oral histories, that there are primary resources that you could still tap into and still kind of piecemeal together the history that occurred.

TEWES: As a historian yourself, do you feel like you're better equipped than others to do that research?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah, I guess so. I'm probably not as well equipped as a librarian, because I feel like librarians are on a whole different level; they're able to find things out of nothing. But yeah, I think so, that that helped, like having the research skills. And also, just the practice. Because I used to work for an oral history 01:14:00center, and I realized the first couple oral histories I did probably wasn't really culturally competent, but I'm also learning from other people who don't work in community spaces. So it's like I learn things kind of the hard way. I just take all of that into how I interact with people, because it's like ultimately you don't want to further hurt people, you don't want to cause harm and damage, but it's always good to get information. But if people aren't willing to do it, I'm not going to force them to do it, because that's not right. Because I do believe there are some ethics that we should be abiding by, but some people don't necessarily see it as such, because some people see it as a zero-sum game, where it's like you either get the information or you don't and it's lost to time. And it's all like, well, but is it really lost to time? If they talk to a niece or a nephew or a 01:15:00kid or the neighbor, it's still going to live on. And damaging or causing harm to someone in the moment is not worth preserving it. Because in the grand scheme of everything, it's like we could just all disappear and none of it would really matter. And I'm not trying to be a huge nihilist, but it's just I want to protect people's experiences on earth, and you don't want to get them really frustrated where they're not able to live in the moment anymore and they're stuck in the past. I don't know if that's where the compassion comes in and the ethics, but it's like we could always find different ways to gather this information without harming people.

TEWES: Great observation. Is there anything you want to 01:16:00add about Farewell to Manzanar, either content or your experience reading it or living with it these many years?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: I don't think so. I guess kind of going back to the identity thing. For the longest time, I never really associated myself with Farewell to Manzanar, because I didn't want to be like -- you know how there's people out there that's riding off of other people's coattails? And so I got actually the biggest compliment a few years ago. I don't know if you know Nancy Ukai Russell. She reached out to me. I want to say it was in 2018, because I went to all the pilgrimages, and she wanted to interview me for an article. I was like, "Oh okay, I'm not important. There's other people to talk to." And so somehow she did ask. She's like, "Wait, your last name. Are you related to Jeanne?" And I was like, "Oh yeah, she's my great aunt." She's like, 01:17:00"No, shit." She may not have cussed, because I don't think she's a cusser. She's like, "I didn't know." She's like, "Did you not tell me for a reason?" And I told her, I was like, "Well, I just wanted to kind of make my own name and do what I do without being seen -- " I don't know. Maybe it's an ego thing, but I also just didn't want people to have these expectations of me. Because I do recall in Idaho when someone found out, they're like, "Oh, I want you to bring your aunt for this and this and this." At the time I wasn't really close with her, so I was like, "Oh, that's kind of weird." But then I ended up getting pretty close with my aunty since then. But she did say, she's like, "Yeah, you've made a pretty good name for yourself. I didn't even recognize it until I wrote your name out and I'm like, Oh, that looks like the author from Farewell to Manzanar." So I was like, 01:18:00"Oh okay, that's really great." So yeah, so that was really nice feedback that I got. Not that I was trying to separate myself from my aunt, but I just didn't want to be seen as I'm going to use that to influence my work.

Because I truly am doing this -- it's for the people that I've interacted with from Minidoka and from Tule Lake, and also, it's a way for me to kind of find myself. But then it's also a way for me to honor my ancestors, but in my own way. Kind of sound a little hippy-dippy and a lot of feelings there that I'm not really expressing. But this is a personal thing for me, it isn't something that I'm trying to showcase, because I do this for a lot of 01:19:00people. And people don't need to know that I'm doing it for them. I'm just trying to preserve the history so that others eventually could learn from it. But if not, that's fine, too. I guess maybe it's selfish. I'm doing it for myself. Yeah.

TEWES: That's important, too, recognizing what it means for you, why you're connected. I'd like to think about the memorialization of incarceration history. You've mentioned pilgrimages, and it sounds like you've worked a few professionally. Have you gone on any in a personal capacity?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: In a personal capacity? That's an interesting concept. I think probably at the beginning I was doing things on a personal capacity. I was with the 01:20:00Friends of Minidoka starting in 2007 when I first started, and I always feel like I was representing whatever organization I was a part of. So I would say probably those first couple of times it was more personal. And this last time I guess Heart Mountain was kind of a mix of personal, but work, too. But yeah, it's definitely a cross where -- I don't know if this is actually getting to what you're asking; I guess maybe what you ask could be a yes or no question, but I'll just continue on -- where it's no longer just for me to go to these things. I've met so many people and friends and people who I consider a second family. I don't want to make it sound terrible, but some of it's kind of an obligation to go, to check up on our elders, to 01:21:00see folks. This last time, right, to Heart Mountain we saw our community uncle, Uncle Shin, and he's this really interesting man who likes to hitchhike across the United States. He goes down and spends his winters in Mexico. I met him twelve years ago where I used to work at a historic prison. I don't know how he got connected, but he came over, we talked for about an hour and he's like, "I'm going to hitchhike to Heart Mountain." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, let me see if I could get you a ride kind of closer." So I think I dropped him off in Twin Falls, and then one of my other friends took him to Pocatello, and then eventually I saw him at Heart Mountain. Because he was going through the Grand Tetons. And I was like, "Oh, I was going to go through Yellowstone." And then a few years later I see him again in Twin Falls and I was like, "How about this? I'll meet you up in Idaho Falls, and I'll take you the rest of the way." So there are these 01:22:00people who come in and out of our lives. But I always wonder, oh, I wonder how Shin's doing? So there's that. But then it's also I like to go, because sometimes things happen and they need assistance -- whether it's your pilgrimage or someone else's pilgrimage. And I always like to just flex and help out, because I've done so many of them that it's like, Oh yeah. You need someone to move chairs? I could move chairs for you. Oh, you need me to go grab something out of the printer? I could go do that. Because I know how stressful it is being in the moment. You're like, oh my God, I need to do all these things. But yeah, personal, professional, all of the above.

TEWES: When you mentioned just being at so many different pilgrimages, I wondered if you could draw a comparison between the different 01:23:00experiences, be it geography or interpretation or emotional impact for folks.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. Well, and I could definitely do it from just a personal lens. I do think that each pilgrimage has its own feel to it. And I don't know if it's created this way, or this is just how I perceive it. Obviously I'm a little bit partial to Minidoka, because it's probably the pilgrimage that I have attended the most, and to me it feels like a family reunion. They do karaoke. Most of the time we're closing down the hotel bar. So you stay up until two o'clock, you close down the bar, we all drink a whole bunch of Pedialyte, we wake back up at six o'clock and we start it over for four days a row. And the Pedialyte's not only for the alcohol, but just the dehydration, being out in the high 01:24:00desert. [laughs] And it's like family. It's just so much fun.

And then you have Tule Lake. It's like an emotional conference where you're getting so educated, but then you're also empowered, where you're like, I need to go write a letter to my senator and burn my bra. But you're just like, I want to make a statement. And I think it's because a lot of the folks came from the Berkeley area, so you have that activism, right? And it's so empowering being in that space, because being in Idaho, it's always like, don't be seen, just try to stay low, don't have anyone look at you. They're just like, Let's do it. We need to talk about this. So it's always inspiring going to the Tule Lake pilgrimage. And plus, I also have a super soft spot in my heart, because I didn't think I was qualified for grad school, because it was really 01:25:00hard for me with my undergrad, because I had to work all these part-time jobs, so my grades weren't good, and I didn't ever think I would get accepted into grad school. But the last day of the 2012 Tule Lake pilgrimage, I got my acceptance letter and it was so funny, because there was all these people in the bus because I took the bus from Seattle. So Paul Tomita, he calls himself a pilgrimage junkie; he's definitely the original gangster there. So it's like him and his wife. So I remember I was like, "Oh my gosh, I got accepted." So he's like, "Oh, that's so exciting. I can't wait to see what happens." And then literally two years later I completed my master's and he's like, "How's school going?" I'm like, "I got my master's degree." So I felt like I grew up in that community and then eventually I 01:26:00worked out there, too. So that holds a special place in my heart, just kind of like how Minidoka holds a special place in my heart.

And then Heart Mountain just feels definitely like a conference, a little bit more structured, in a way. I guess the only way I could kind of relate to it is it's kind of more business conference. You're there, but it's still really good, because you get to meet up with a whole bunch of people. And this last time, there was this whole contingency of Yonsei, Gosei, so that was super empowering.

But then you have Amache. I've only been to Amache, I think once, for a pilgrimage. But it's very remote driving out there. You're at this high school where this teacher, John 01:27:00Hopper, he's been preserving this site, and it's really cool to see descendants come out and other people from the Japanese American community out of Denver. It's this really wholesome event, because he'll cook the food and they have the students trying to show people around. It just feels really nice, you know, it's the local community. I don't know how to really adequately express those feelings.

Manzanar, it's also a unique thing, right, because originally it's just a one-day event, but they've been expanding a little bit to do some cultural events the day before. And that's really cool, too. You can kind of see it's more structured around the LA lifestyle. And I remember I was talking to one of my friends who's like, "Well, I want to wake up in my bed and I want to go to sleep in my bed." So I'm like, 01:28:00oh, now I understand why it's just like a four-hour thing mostly in the day, because then people could drive in from LA and they could go back home. But it's still super powerful, because it's one of the largest pilgrimages where sometimes they'll have a thousand people or more there. And you just get all these people together and there's a lot of youth engagement and a lot of allyship with other BIPOC communities, which is kind of really cool. And seeing the Nikkei Student Unions, where I'm all like, I didn't even know there was such a thing. I wish I would have gone to a school in California. I had no clue about all these resources out there.

Gila River doesn't necessarily have a pilgrimage, per se, but twice a year the JACL will coordinate a cleanup day and you get to go out to the site. You hear from tribal leaders 01:29:00about the history and the significance of the site, and then we do a cleanup and then it's just a way to connect with the site in a very somber, non-invasive way. And then the JACL usually hosts a luncheon afterwards, which is super cool and very intimate, because it's a lot smaller.

And then you have like Poston. I think now they've been doing it for several years. I went on the first one, which was really cool that they're doing engagement with the local tribe, with the CRIT, the Colorado Indian Tribe, or Colorado River Indian Tribe. And it's just getting people together over there, going to the site. So there's a memorial out by a highway and then there's kind of this historic area. I think it's the schoolhouse. And they had one barrack that was moved over there, but I think that burned down within the last couple of 01:30:00years. But it's one of the few areas where the school was made out of -- I think it was adobe bricks or something like that, which is very unique compared to the other camps. So that's really cool just to be a part of that group, yeah.

And then you got Topaz. I don't know if it was officially a pilgrimage or not, but we're in Salt Lake and then you take a bus out there, you go see the site, go to the museum. And the site is just incredible. I'm not a religious person, but this is the only way I feel like I could actually describe it: it's like the rapture happened. Things just disappeared, but you could walk on the paths, because you could kind of still see it delineated, but then there's stuff on the ground like pottery or pennies and stuff like that, as if people just disappeared. And it's a very eerie 01:31:00sense, but it's also incredibly -- I don't know what's the right word. It just makes you feel really small, but it's also haunting at the same time. But then you're able to connect with the site. But it's just incredible being out at that site. Yeah. And then the museum is cool, too, because that was actually sponsored by a JACS grant. So it's always good to kind of see all those things.

And then Rohwer and Jerome, recently that pilgrimage has been started by Kimiko Marr. I was on the first pilgrimage, and that was super cool. I think we were mostly out of a Comfort Inn, but I was a bus monitor so that was really interesting to go out to these sites. It was my first time going to these sites and just seeing the remnants. And again, 01:32:00that pilgrimage was really cool, too, because there's education sessions. And I think most of the pilgrimage has some sort of educational component and then community building component to it. But it was just really cool how Kimiko organized that to go to both sites. And then also in town in Little Rock, there was -- I think it's like a gallery. They had some stuff. And then going out to McGehee to look at that small museum that's out there that talks about Rohwer and Jerome.

Did I cover all the sites? [laughs] But yeah, all of them have a different feel, and I would never say one is better than the other, because they all give you something different. It's just a different experience that I believe that everyone should experience, because sometimes people don't need to live in that emotional space. Sometimes people need to just connect with the land and 01:33:00understand: why were these places chosen, or, what is happening on these lands now? Because over at Rohwer and Jerome, it's being cultivated. But it's also like Minidoka, Heart Mountain, and Tule Lake, that was all ag. That was from BLM [Bureau of Land Management], so it turned over for the Homestead Act. But then that's why at Topaz and Manzanar and other sites, sometimes nothing was actually built over. And then you hear the stories from the elders at Gila River. That site that was chosen is actually a very important site to the Gila River Tribe. And so there was a verbal agreement with our elders where they said they will not develop that site unless they absolutely have to. And so far there isn't any development. And so hearing 01:34:00those oral histories being passed down is really powerful, especially when you're right there. So there's a memorial for military folks up there. And I think his last name -- it was Mr. Shorthair, I think -- he kind of was telling us these stories, and it gave me chicken skin hearing that theme there. And then it also makes me sad, where it's all the government just decided to build there. They kept on asking the tribe, "Hey, can we build this prison here?" And then they're like, "No." And then after the third time they're like, "Yeah, whatever. Okay." And then it became front page news, where it's like "tribe agrees." But they reluctantly agreed, but then the government was trying to make it into something more. And then just to hear the sadness about how the tribal community didn't even like seeing it, because they knew what was 01:35:00happening. So yeah, it adds all these layers to the story. Sorry, I'll just stop talking.

TEWES: That was wonderful, thank you. And I was especially interested in your connection to place, and the power that place has in telling these stories and connecting people to that history. As we move towards the end of our time together, I do want to make sure I give you space to talk about the eightieth Day of Remembrance event this past February. You had mentioned that you worked on it, but is there anything else you'd like to say? It was a rather big event, and well done, I should say.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Oh, thank you. Yeah. The only thing I could kind of comment on is there's just so much synergy, where it's like everyone saw the importance of this milestone. And to me, our planning committee was 01:36:00mostly -- so it was Noriko Sanefuji, Julie Abo -- so Noriko is from the Smithsonian, Julie Abo is from Heart Mountain Wyoming Foundation -- and myself. And then we also had Dakota Russell from Heart Mountain participate later on. Where originally we're like, we just need to go big or go home, because this is the eightieth and we've been in COVID for so long, and we need to provide something for our community and we really wanted a community event and a space. Because this is originally a Smithsonian event. So they invited me to participate on behalf of the Park Service, because normally they hold an in-person event in D.C. And they're like, "Well, it's the eightieth. We want to make something bigger." So I was like, "Okay." I like to plan events and I'm always like go big or go home. Well, when 01:37:00we draft things out, we are going for all of our number ones. Because there's people who are like, "Well, we need to have backup." I'm like, "We will get to those backups when we need them," because I'm all like, "Because then we can spend all this time, where it's like, who else do we need to get if this person can't come?" So I'm like, "Let's just go with our dream team and let's see what happens." And it was pretty incredible. We got our dream team, because it's working with Erika [Moritsugu] out of the White House, those interests. And then the interest was, "Do you want the President? What would you like?" I was just like, "Well, could we get a presidential letter?" Because I'm like, "Erika, you're one of the highest-level Japanese Americans in the White House, and it will be great if you can participate in some opportunity, and I think that that would be great." But then I'm like, "I would really love to have the Vice President," because she is an Asian American woman, right? And I'm all like, "It would be great 01:38:00if we could have you, we could have Vice President Harris, we could have Krystal Ka'ai from the White House Initiative on Asian American Hawai'ians and Pacific Islanders, because she's the executive director." I'm like, "I just really want a powerhouse of Asian American women and just people of color." We got Norm Mineta to do a little talk. Yeah. We got Brian Niiya. It was really interesting, because it all came together rather nicely and it was really interesting, because I did get one comment where someone's like, "Wow, that was the most people of color I've ever seen in a government program." Because they're like, "There was just one white woman." And Anthea [Hartig's] amazing. She's the director of the American History Museum. But I was like, "Yeah. We kind of want to curate that to show that we are visible." And then we had Lonnie Bunch, who's the secretary of the 01:39:00Smithsonian, and he's Black.

We wanted to curate that feeling of, this is a celebration of us. It's a somber thing, because the executive order really f-ed up with a lot of families, right, and caused a lot of trauma. But we need to acknowledge that, but we also need to find a way of: how are we moving forward? Because we've had six panel discussions. We are trying to curate all these topics, because when we did Tadaima! it's like we don't want to cover another topic, but our first one is about museums and: how are we challenging ourselves and telling the story correctly? Because it's like, Yeah, we've had other museum panels, but we wanted to actually have different subjects talked about. So we went through our list. Originally we had fifteen topics, and then we decided to combine stuff or take things 01:40:00out and every single one of those panels were highly curated. We wanted to be representative. So we have people talking about Japanese Latinas. We also have the Black community representative with their redress program that they're trying to do. We're trying to get people from different demographics of the Japanese American community, because we're not just a monolith, right, there's so many different stories and threads out there that people are touching on.

And so again, this is our dream team, this is what we want. And every single person said yes, and we were just floored because we're like, there has to be at least one person who's going to be like, "No, it's good," or, "Oh, I'm busy." But everyone showed up, and it was just so incredible just to see the community coming together and it was nice to kind of roll off of Tadaima! 01:41:00Because with Tadaima! Was it Frank Abbott or someone was saying, "This is probably the largest gathering of Japanese Americans," because we had over 100,000 participants. And then this last program for Day of Remembrance, I think the last time I checked all the numbers, we had about 10,000 participants for that weekend program. So it's really incredible that we're able to elevate at such a high level, because recapping: we got the presidential letter; we got the Vice President to make a speech; we got a presidential proclamation; we got Erika Moritsugu, the deputy assistant to the President and the senior AANHPI liaison; and then we had the executive director of the White House Initiative; and then we even had Norm Mineta; we had Lonnie Bunch. It was an all-star piece. And 01:42:00even Brian Niiya from Densho kind of giving us the history of DOR in a little nutshell. It was just incredible. It's just awe inspiring that people are willing to come together for these special events and put aside their egos and they just do it, right? That's a really awesome thing.

TEWES: Thank you. I will say it was really special to be there and to see the representation, but also the interest that people were showing. So I'm glad to hear it was 10,000, that's amazing.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah.

TEWES: So we've been speaking in our conversations about many sites of Japanese American 01:43:00incarceration. But Manzanar seems to be the one that many people hold up or lives large in popular culture. I'm curious as to why you think maybe it has such a large role in the public consciousness.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. I would say a lot of it probably has to do with pop culture and media. Because with the book Farewell to Manzanar, I think that's a lot of people's entry into the Japanese American incarceration story, because there were many states that actually had it as required reading for a really long time. And then I know, at least Farewell to Manzanar, then there was a made-for-TV movie. Because when I used to live in California, it was always around Christmastime. My dad would be like, "We need to watch Farewell to Manzanar." So we'll find it on Disney and then we'll watch it. Because they would always play it on the Disney 01:44:00cable station. So I think that that's probably why. And a lot of people from the LA area went to Manzanar. And so if you think about it seeping into pop culture, that that's where a lot of it is -- like I have this dream one day to do an exhibit on pop culture references to the incarceration. So I don't know if you watch Man in High Castle. There was a reference to Manzanar. In the Star Trek Enterprise, there's a mention of Manzanar. And most of the time it's always Manzanar that you hear, right? There's several different songs. Like Mike Shinoda with Fort Minor, there's Manzanar. But then there's also this country singer, and I can't remember his name, but he sings about Manzanar but he calls it Manzanar. It's really interesting. But there are some people 01:45:00that remember that song, and that's how they got introduced to Manzanar.

So I feel like a lot of it is because population base and dominant culture is around the LA area, where most people were sent out. I feel like a lot of people now know more about Heart Mountain, because they know about Norm Mineta's story and Alan Simpson when they talk about working across the aisle in the political realm. So I think that that's starting to gain a little bit more attention.

But it's also regional based, too, because Minidoka's coming into pop culture, because you had Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet, and that's based out of Minidoka and that's turning into a film. There's a couple of plays about Minidoka and Bainbridge Island and stuff like that. But that's all coming out of the Seattle area. So I think it just depends on who are the content creators and where their influences 01:46:00are. But then you got some folks like Willie Ito. I think he was incarcerated at Topaz, but he was a Disney artist. He did that famous drawing of Lady and the Tramp where the meatball drops in the noodles and they have a famous kiss, that's his thing. And I think there's been more talk about that, because actually David Ono from LA, he did a segment on Willie Ito, and I feel like more people are getting to know that. That's why it's a little bit more in the background in our thoughts, more so than before. But I do think a lot of it is just whoever the influences are in the areas where the references are being made.

TEWES: And I think I'll just end by asking: what do you see for the future of 01:47:00interpretation around incarceration history?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Like what do I see or what do I want to see? [laughs]

TEWES: Well sure, Hanako, let's go with A.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Okay. Well, I'll start off with what I want to see. I want to see more people from the community being able to work on these topics and feeling comfortable without feeling that they're being tokenized. And that's a really tall order of feeling respected to do the work, but then not also like tokenized where it's like, well, of course you're doing the work. And I think that that would be super meaningful. Not saying that if you are not part of the community, you can't tell the story. I'm not saying that at all, because I do believe people don't have to be from the community to tell it, But I think that there's a huge opportunity for community members to be able to do 01:48:00it, and I think that a lot of it is us as community members needing to work through our own issues to feel comfortable doing it. This is kind of off-point but on-point. But it's like when I was younger, everyone assumed that I would like to watch Mulan. I specifically never watched it until I was an adult, because there was that expectation. And so sometimes we reject things, because there's this assumption that we should like it. And I felt very much like that at times. But then I'm glad I leaned into it, because it definitely has given me a lot of perception and a lot of awesome experiences and I got to meet a lot of amazing people who helped make me who I am, right? But I just don't want to dissuade other people who are interested in the story to tell it, because I do think that we 01:49:00need other people. We need everyone. Everyone needs to just tell the story. [laughs] But if we could just create some space for people from the community to tell it.

And there's some people who feel that this is not their history, but it is. It's going back to my intern, the one that was asked if he was Japanese. It's like he's a local kid from Jerome, Idaho, and he remembers his dad saying, "Yeah, there was a j-a-p camp there." And it wasn't derogatory, because that's just how people talked. And then I got to get to know him and he's like, "Yeah, it's really important. I want to learn more about it." And this is part of his history, it's part of his local history, it's part of his history. But then also being able to recruit people who are Japanese Americans, like Kurt Ikeda. He was my intern four years ago and now he's the director of education and interpretation, he replaced me at Minidoka. And his lead interpreter is Emily Teraoka, and her 01:50:00family was incarcerated, I think, at Rohwer or Jerome. And so having descendants being able to tell these stories is great, but then also with the local kids, where this is also their history. There is a balance we can have, and it makes it more meaningful rather than you just hire people who are, oh, this is a job, and let me just do this 8:00 to 5:00. I'm not trying to say that we need to abuse people, where it's like this has to be your whole living and your existence, but finding that balance where you get people who want to preserve these stories, but then also trying to create the space for people who may not feel as open to readily get involved, because of stereotypes and stuff. So that's my dream.

But I think where we're going as a profession is to be more, I guess, academically sound in how we're presenting this history, where it isn't full 01:51:00of misinformation. And I'm not saying it's not full of emotion, because we want to trigger the empathetic reaction. And I know that this is a really crude statement to say. We're not going to just pour out a story just to get the sobs, right? You're doing it in a tactful way, where you could still convey a story that is sad, that it isn't always trying to get tears. There's a point where, yeah, that's okay to do that. But that's not always like the interpretive way. We need to embrace the new interpretive way of interacting with people. I know everyone loves ACE, like the Audience Centered Experience, but you can't really do ACE if people don't have a solid 01:52:00background in something. I could go up to the general public and be like, "Hey, what do you think it's like being imprisoned here?" And if they have no context, we could get a whole range of stuff. But I do think that there has to be a mix of the old school stuff, of the didactic aspects, where they get the context, but then you could still do the ACE programming at the end when they have enough information to speculate. But do we also want to speculate? To me it isn't always about now you have to imagine yourself in this person's shoes. Because I also feel like that's like an older model, where they really want to place you in some issues. But you could still be emotionally in someone's shoes without physically being in their shoes. And so it is part of the models of interpretations, where it's like baseline is understanding and the next level of interpretation is sympathy. The highest level is empathy, but you're building upon 01:53:00that to get people to fully understand all aspects of the incarceration. Not like, oh, this is only affecting family life. Oh, this is only affecting identity. Oh, the food sucked. It's like, no, holistically, this impacted people in all these different ways. Where it's like not only did the food suck, there were reproductive rights issues.

02-01:53:23 I don't know if you know, but at Minidoka, there was a whole spread of gonorrhea, because they weren't even sterilizing equipment correctly, and then that's what led to the facility finally ordering an autoclave so they could sterilize equipment. So there's this whole other research that we need to do about medical malpractice in the camps. But it's all just something basic on cleanliness of medical instruments impacted many different people. I want to say it was ten or twelve women ended up contracting that, and then giving it to their spouses because 01:54:00of this issue. So it isn't just like, oh, we're only going to focus on this and that, and it's all going to be in these nice little bundles that we're going to look at this or that. It's like you had to look at it holistically. And then that's how you get the empathy, where it's like, oh my God, not only was this f-ed up, that was pretty f-ed up. Oh my gosh, how did, you know, people managed to process this? And it's all like, Yeah, you're feeling overwhelmed in this instance and there are people who lived this for four years. And it continued after the four years of incarceration. It continues down these generations where it's like -- I don't know if I'm explaining this well, but it's showing things in a more holistic way, rather than when I see different models of interpretation they're only focusing on these little topics and that's it. Which in one aspect, maybe they did it for simplicity, but then it does a disservice to telling the 01:55:00 story.

TEWES: So it sounds like you see more emphasis, as well, on the intergenerational impacts, too.

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah, absolutely. And not only intergenerational, but intercommunity. Because I know we still need to work within the Japanese American communities to talk about it, but I see, especially at Minidoka, some people in the local community, they don't feel like they could adequately connect to the story, because they feel like it's that community's story. And then you get all this weird stuff. But technically it's our community, [laughs] and to help break down those barriers where people could then process some of their stuff out. Because it's like, again, this history, yes, it kind of belongs to a community, but it also belongs to all of us, right? But it's finding that balance where you're not appropriating the history, but you're providing space for people to connect 01:56:00and process the history within their own families. Because it could be that they're a local white family. There was this gentleman at Minidoka, he was one of the few white kids in camp, because his parents were like, "This is f-ed up. We want you to see how messed up this." And he ended up becoming Idaho's attorney general. And this definitely impacted him in trying to fight for justice. So that's a good story. But then there's also people who remember their parents were like super racist and then that impacted them, where they're like, "So this must be wrong." [laughs] And that's also a valid experience, but they didn't want to talk about it due to the shame. So there's different aspects that we could feel as a greater community by having these conversations, having the space to have these reflections 01:57:00where we're not going to be judgmental, so then we could just start healing within our communities and we could just be -- maybe I'm being too bold -- but just within American society, we have so much hurt and we just need to find the spaces so we can talk about it. We can't fix everything, but if we could at least try to heal ourselves, it may help out with fixing some other issues. But ultimately, we only can control what's within our sphere. And to me, it's always like, if I could help heal myself and help other people who need that space, that would help me out, too. And maybe that's a selfish way of thinking.

TEWES: No, it's valid. Thank you so much, Hanako. Is there anything you want to add that I have not asked, or you want to add to something we've already discussed?

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: No, I think I'm all good.

TEWES: You probably got more areas than you thought you 01:58:00knew you wanted to discuss. [laughs]

WAKATSUKI-CHONG: Yeah. It's been interesting, though. Yeah.

TEWES: Thank you again so, so much. I'm going to close us out now.

[End of Interview]